BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 19, 2012 21:17:44 GMT -5
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Post by Tsavodiner on Jun 19, 2012 21:34:44 GMT -5
The demographic of the country changes, and their appetite for vices changes with it. Poor, poor potheads and growers.
*meh*
Cars have improved dramatically over the past thirty years, so the safety standards for older cars, which were inherently LESS safe, should diminish by your reasoning, no?
I enjoyed what "CaveJohnson" of the article had to say about the whole thing.
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Post by apriled on Jun 19, 2012 23:30:45 GMT -5
BlackFox
Prescription pain medication abuse kills more people. but the underlying problem is addiction, not the type of delivery.
I know accidental death from prescription drugs is very real, and I think more people die from the medical misadventure. From my own experience, medical treatments have become more specialized. As a result, I have Internist, that sent me to an endocrinologist, that sent me to an orthopedist, ...Each specialty has their own treatment, and none of them really communicate about their treatments. ugh.
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Post by Tsavodiner on Jun 20, 2012 3:10:01 GMT -5
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jun 20, 2012 6:26:05 GMT -5
In most cases, yes. The problem with addictions to prescription pain medication is that people with non-addictive personalities can and do become addicted to prescription pain medication because if you have severe and chronic pain management of that pain will result in a physical addiction to the pain medication. In fact, often a doctor will continue to prescribe the pain meds knowing the patient has become addicted because managing the pain is more important at that point in the therapy. The patient can be weaned of the addiction later. The problem is that the addiction also alters the personality and laws concerning these drugs can also make treatment for the addiction troublesome for the doctor and patient.
So not all addicts are created equal and more than a few of these deaths we are speaking about are of people who had they never been in that accident that caused the injury that gives them the pain would never have become addicted to anything. Our fear of the word "addiction" and the laws we have trying to protect people from drug abuse is the biggest cause of drug abuse, IMNSHO.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 20, 2012 8:02:21 GMT -5
BlackFox Prescription pain medication abuse kills more people. but the underlying problem is addiction, not the type of delivery. In times past, the worry in our country was about "the carnage" of illegal drug abuse and the deaths that it caused. Well, it turns out that it wasn't the drugs themselves that the government, via special interest money, was worried about. Instead, it was about "Who's making money here". Everyone in power got what they wanted. There are now legal, pharmaceutical replacements for all the most popular illegal drugs, and of course there are still the natural "originals" out there that law enforcement can ruin lives over. Want some speed? How about a nice Vyvanse, or Provigil, or Ritalin, or Adderal. Any of those, with their accompanying side effects are perfectly fine, but if you'd like a little cocaine, you're a horrible person who has issues and need to be locked up. Pain? Oh they've got you covered these days for sure. The best of them are just heroin in pill form, but hey, you got it from your pharmacist so that makes it ok. Can't sleep? Take an Ambian. Sure you might sleep walk right into traffic, or call old acquaintances and talk gibberish to them, or get up in a stupor and take some other medicine from your cabinet that kills you, but hey, at least it wasn't marijuana, which would provide a wonderful nights sleep with no side effects. No, it's perfectly clear that our betters know that people are going to seek relief and/ or intoxication. They just want to be the ones that provide it. Meanwhile, law enforcement can continue to lock up those scumbags who might not have insurance or just like going the natural route.
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Post by apriled on Jun 20, 2012 12:37:05 GMT -5
If I kick the bucket from medications, it will be from physicians medical misadventure. BTW, does ambien kill many people? I saw it mentioned.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 12:54:21 GMT -5
This guy could care less if you wanna kill yourself with drugs. I just don't like being the victim of the crimes that come with drug abuse. Course, BF's "follow the money" conspiracy sounds a lot more interesting.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 20, 2012 13:08:07 GMT -5
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 20, 2012 13:17:04 GMT -5
This guy could care less if you wanna kill yourself with drugs. I just don't like being the victim of the crimes that come with drug abuse. Course, BF's "follow the money" conspiracy sounds a lot more interesting. I wonder how much less he could care? Most of the crimes you refer to are the result of prohibition, and not the drugs themselves. Theft as a result of higher prices brought on by the dealers "risk premium". Violence brought on by no legal recourse when something goes wrong. Drugged drivers should not be tolerated any more than drunk drivers and should have equal legal status. As far as addicts go, it costs the state less to rehab and teach prevention, even repeatedly, than incarcerate. Look to Portugal. It's working. Unlike our failed 40 year experiment in enforcement only.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 20, 2012 13:21:08 GMT -5
Course, BF's "follow the money" conspiracy sounds a lot more interesting. If you don't see the obvious "Pharmaceutical instead of natural drug replacement" plan that has happened over the last 20 years or so, you are blind sir.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 14:57:47 GMT -5
This guy could care less if you wanna kill yourself with drugs. I just don't like being the victim of the crimes that come with drug abuse. Course, BF's "follow the money" conspiracy sounds a lot more interesting. I wonder how much less he could care? Most of the crimes you refer to are the result of prohibition, and not the drugs themselves. Theft as a result of higher prices brought on by the dealers "risk premium". Violence brought on by no legal recourse when something goes wrong. Drugged drivers should not be tolerated any more than drunk drivers and should have equal legal status. As far as addicts go, it costs the state less to rehab and teach prevention, even repeatedly, than incarcerate. Look to Portugal. It's working. Unlike our failed 40 year experiment in enforcement only. Rape, murder and theft to get the next fix is a result of prohibition? Something tells me that even if crack was free that these people would still commit these crimes. Crack heads gotta eat and pay electric bills, too and I don't see any with a 9 to 5. Felonious and deadly crime and theft while stoned is a result of prohibition? Yup, I'm sure it has nothing to do with them being stoned. Far as rehab and prevention goes, I agree with you. And for the most part, so does the legal system. Someone may spend the night in the drunk tank for a baggie but users are not incarcerated. Even sellers are not incarcerated for that long. Our jails and prisons are not floweth overeth with drug users.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 15:03:47 GMT -5
Course, BF's "follow the money" conspiracy sounds a lot more interesting. If you don't see the obvious "Pharmaceutical instead of natural drug replacement" plan that has happened over the last 20 years or so, you are blind sir. Nope, I'm saying that a conspiracy that pharmaceutical companies are controlling our laws, politicians, jails and public opinion is right up there with the conspiracy that Bush killed Hussein for oil and 9/11 was an inside job.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 20, 2012 15:16:48 GMT -5
I wonder how much less he could care? Most of the crimes you refer to are the result of prohibition, and not the drugs themselves. Theft as a result of higher prices brought on by the dealers "risk premium". Violence brought on by no legal recourse when something goes wrong. Drugged drivers should not be tolerated any more than drunk drivers and should have equal legal status. As far as addicts go, it costs the state less to rehab and teach prevention, even repeatedly, than incarcerate. Look to Portugal. It's working. Unlike our failed 40 year experiment in enforcement only. Rape, murder and theft to get the next fix is a result of prohibition? Something tells me that even if crack was free that these people would still commit these crimes. Crack heads gotta eat and pay electric bills, too and I don't see any with a 9 to 5. Felonious and deadly crime and theft while stoned is a result of prohibition? Yup, I'm sure it has nothing to do with them being stoned. You're talking about an infinitesimally small percentage of users. What would change for them, whether their drug of choice were legal or illegal? I say nothing. The difference would be made for RESPONSIBLE users, the 99% of drug users in this country. The ones that don't rape, murder, and steal. That don't do stupid shit. That just want their intoxicant of choice to be treated the same way as the other, just as potentially dangerous, legal ones are, and not be treated as a criminal for it.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 20, 2012 15:21:27 GMT -5
If you don't see the obvious "Pharmaceutical instead of natural drug replacement" plan that has happened over the last 20 years or so, you are blind sir. Nope, I'm saying that a conspiracy that pharmaceutical companies are controlling our laws, politicians, jails and public opinion is right up there with the conspiracy that Bush killed Hussein for oil and 9/11 was an inside job. I would say that at the very least they saw an opening, an opening they've fully supported, and jumped on it. And they ain't about to sit idly by and watch it be overturned. Just like "The Prison Industry"(three words that should never have been put together), they like things just the way they are.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 16:01:01 GMT -5
Rape, murder and theft to get the next fix is a result of prohibition? Something tells me that even if crack was free that these people would still commit these crimes. Crack heads gotta eat and pay electric bills, too and I don't see any with a 9 to 5. Felonious and deadly crime and theft while stoned is a result of prohibition? Yup, I'm sure it has nothing to do with them being stoned. You're talking about an infinitesimally small percentage of users. What would change for them, whether their drug of choice were legal or illegal? I say nothing.The difference would be made for RESPONSIBLE users, the 99% of drug users in this country. The ones that don't rape, murder, and steal. That don't do stupid shit. That just want their intoxicant of choice to be treated the same way as the other, just as potentially dangerous, legal ones are, and not be treated as a criminal for it. Wow. You've left me speechless. Maybe one of the cops here will come along to tell you how far your head is buried
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jun 20, 2012 16:05:52 GMT -5
JC, I know you have to be somewhat knowledgeable of the history of prohibition. It didn't work with alcohol and caused more harm than it prevented. How can you possibly think that our prohibition on drugs isn't doing anything but the same thing.... especially with us seeing what the drug cartels are doing to Mexico and to our own citizens.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 16:06:11 GMT -5
Nope, I'm saying that a conspiracy that pharmaceutical companies are controlling our laws, politicians, jails and public opinion is right up there with the conspiracy that Bush killed Hussein for oil and 9/11 was an inside job. I would say that at the very least they saw an opening, an opening they've fully supported, and jumped on it. And they ain't about to sit idly by and watch it be overturned. Just like "The Prison Industry"(three words that should never have been put together), they like things just the way they are. Why would the pharmaceutical companies want to keep illegal drugs illegal and potential customers "incarcerated" when they could profit from the legalization of them?
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 16:14:34 GMT -5
JC, I know you have to be somewhat knowledgeable of the history of prohibition. It didn't work with alcohol and caused more harm than it prevented. How can you possibly think that our prohibition on drugs isn't doing anything but the same thing.... especially with us seeing what the drug cartels are doing to Mexico and to our own citizens. I am not denying that there is crime from the prohibition. I am saying that the crime from it's use is the major problem. Something that BF seems to think is a mere myth. I will also say that legalizing drugs will not stop the crimes we have now from the prohibition. You really think that the gangs and drug cartels will surrender their less then mere pittance? We're talking about a multimillion dollar trade here, yanno.
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TNBear
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Post by TNBear on Jun 20, 2012 18:05:32 GMT -5
Including rape in crimes committed for profit seems a bit far-fetched.
As to prescription drugs leading to death, it is possible that someone can take pain relievers for so long that it takes a lethal dose to relieve their pain due to tolerence increasing. Nothing to do with addiction or misuse.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jun 20, 2012 18:14:48 GMT -5
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 21, 2012 7:32:00 GMT -5
I would say that at the very least they saw an opening, an opening they've fully supported, and jumped on it. And they ain't about to sit idly by and watch it be overturned. Just like "The Prison Industry"(three words that should never have been put together), they like things just the way they are. Why would the pharmaceutical companies want to keep illegal drugs illegal and potential customers "incarcerated" when they could profit from the legalization of them? Simple. They don't have a monopoly on the natural product. Google "How marijuana became illegal".
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 21, 2012 7:35:18 GMT -5
Wow. You've left me speechless. Maybe one of the cops here will come along to tell you how far your head is buried I welcome it. Hopefully, they'll bring with them the total poundage both imported and grown internally every year for comparison with the amount possibly consumed by the criminal element. Me thinks there will be quite a substantial disparity.
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Post by LimitedRecourse on Jun 21, 2012 13:15:58 GMT -5
Blackfox has a seriously skewed utopian view of pot users. See how "victimless" the drug is down on Bragg Street or North Hawthorne St. The people shot, stabbed, assaulted for this Non-violent drug may take issue with the "non-violent" stance.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 21, 2012 13:31:22 GMT -5
Blackfox has a seriously skewed utopian view of pot users. See how "victimless" the drug is down on Bragg Street or North Hawthorne St. The people shot, stabbed, assaulted for this Non-violent drug may take issue with the "non-violent" stance. Answer honestly LR, is it the effects of the MJ itself, or its status as a commodity, given value by the black market? I don't walk in your shoes, so I can't say definitively, but I would guess that the violence you see probably has to do with other drugs or just plain inner city hate, and MJ just happens to also be there. I bet cigarettes were there too, possibly even alcohol. What if cigarettes were outlawed tomorrow? Do you think there would be violence as it became scarce? Would you say cigarettes caused violence? Marijuana won't stop a violent person from becoming violent. It also won't cause a peaceful person to become violent. It has no relation to violence except that which is brought by prohibition.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 21, 2012 13:34:32 GMT -5
See how "victimless" the drug is down on Bragg Street or North Hawthorne St. . Based on that small slice of the map, I believe you could make a compelling case for outlawing sneakers too!
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Post by LimitedRecourse on Jun 21, 2012 13:40:09 GMT -5
It is both. Many assualts/shootings/stabbings are to GET the money and weed to make personal profit.
However MANY of the same are by addicts doing what they feel they need to to get THEIR ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCE. This is the part that Blackfox does not want to admit or acknowledge.
MANY, MANY, MANY of the shootings where marijuana is involved is THE USERS becoming VIOLENT to get their weed. MJ is NOT the mellow, munchie-inducing drug that it was in the 50's & 60's. It is now 100's of times stronger and much more addictive. The THC levels have been astronomically raised through selective breeding and hydroponic growing methods. Scientists have done studies since the late 90's that show the higher concentrations of THC cause people to become VIOLENT and AGITATED when they can not obtain their weed...the exact opposite of what marijuana used to produce in people.
Weed is NOT just a simple little drug anymore. It is a highly addictive, violence-inducing narcotic that poses a threat to anyone who uses it or is around anyone using it. I am not the one living in a fantasy world, Blackfox.
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 21, 2012 13:51:04 GMT -5
Well, there's no arguing with that. We'll disagree....again. All I can say is that your experience and "facts" are in direct odds with my own experience of not too distant past and with the experience of every person I have known, and with every single truly scientific non biased study that I've seen published.
Maybe they're still putting PCP in it over in the 'hood.
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Post by Half-Tard on Jun 21, 2012 13:55:22 GMT -5
The Hearst Family is why it became illegal. They were in the paper business and hemp was coming on strong. Didn't want the competition and created the propaganda machine to push for it's ban..
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Post by ssmynkint on Jun 21, 2012 17:06:04 GMT -5
No. Neither. Or, cite research by reputable sources.
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