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Post by CMF Newsman on Mar 26, 2007 9:20:47 GMT -5
WASHINGTON - Children who got quality child care before entering kindergarten had better vocabulary scores in the fifth grade than did youngsters who received lower quality care. Also, the more time that children spent in child care, the more likely their sixth grade teachers were to report problem behavior. The findings come from the largest study of child care and development conducted in the United States. The 1,364 children in the analysis had been tracked since birth as part of a study by the National Institutes of Health. In the study's latest installment, being released Monday, researchers evaluated whether characteristics observed between kindergarten and third grade were still present in fifth grade or sixth grade. The researchers found that the vocabulary and behavior patterns did continue, though many other characteristics did dissipate. complete story
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whimdriven
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Post by whimdriven on Mar 26, 2007 9:29:44 GMT -5
I hate to see these stories released ... It just gives the traditional, conservative naysayers one more reason to degrade women who choose to balance career and children rather than stay home.
I am a product of preschool and daycare, by choice, no less. I enjoyed socializing with my peers, especially since there were no kids around in my neighborhood. Preschool is where my teachers, those trained to notice, first observed that I might be "gifted and talented" and suggested that my grandparents have me tested to take advantage of the special programs available to such students in public schools.
My friends that stayed home with mom during their early formative years are by far less socially-equipped (even in their 20s) than those of us who attended preschool and afterschool care programs.
Problem behavior has so much more to do with the HOME rather than the SCHOOL, preschool, daycare, or otherwise.
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Post by Gary on Mar 26, 2007 9:32:09 GMT -5
Good news: better vocabulary scores
Bad news: they beat the crap out of their lessers
Conclusion: Those that speak better are naturally bullies.
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Jay
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Post by Jay on Mar 26, 2007 20:49:20 GMT -5
Whatever happened to use your words and not your fists?... Things that make you go hmmmmm,
~J
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Post by voxpopuli on Mar 27, 2007 13:36:55 GMT -5
Did anyone notice that the study is very anti-father?
Child care was defined as regularly scheduled care by anyone other than the child's mother, lasting at least 10 hours per week.
Dad's are just not important, according to these feminist idiots.
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Post by Warkitty on Mar 27, 2007 13:57:27 GMT -5
It isn't that dad's aren't important, its that this is geared towards convincing women to not work but stay home with the kids... and leave the working world to the fathers who theoretically aren't nurturing enough to raise healthy children.
So essentially, its not feminists.
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Post by Gary on Mar 27, 2007 14:12:51 GMT -5
I think it's a bit of both, WK. There are feminists who truly believe that men are not a valid part of the child-rearing equation, and there are misogynists who believe that women should stay at home and raise children and leave men's work to the men.
Having been raised by a single working mother who moved us 3,000 miles away from our father, I have a first-hand perspective on the issue. I think I would have a better childhood had I had a strong male presence around, but at the same time I do NOT see daycare and such programs as having had any lasting negative impact on me. In fact, I spent a lot of time at the Boys Club growing up and learned a lot more about life than I would have staying at home.
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Jay
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Post by Jay on Mar 27, 2007 17:12:54 GMT -5
With so many divorces in the US there is no such thing as a normal family unit or the best way to take care of kids.
I think if there isn't a father, is is still beneficial for the child to have a strong male presence (Like Gary said)
While child care might not always be the best ideal....it is frequently necessary...especially since many families have moved to both parents working. It doesn't help that the "real minimum wage" (accounting for inflation) has actually gone down since the sixties..
I think it all works out though as long as the parent/s still hold an interest in their child and what they do. It's good if the child doesn't go crazy and do whatever they want without any real consequences..
~J
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 27, 2007 22:58:59 GMT -5
You better take that back or else! On a related note, equality is bad for you: Feminism shortens your lifeBTW, if men live a shorter life, shouldn't we be considered a disadvantaged group and be given special treatment like other "disadvantaged" groups?
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Post by daworm on Mar 28, 2007 8:12:47 GMT -5
It couldn't have anything to do with people living beyond their means that makes both spouses have to work, could it? That mean old government and their niggardly minimum wage has to be the blame. Yeah, that's what it is all right. How could I have been so blind?
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whimdriven
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Post by whimdriven on Mar 28, 2007 8:24:44 GMT -5
It's a shame that so many in this society feel that women should be confined to the home with the children and not able to pursue a career to its fullest potential.
Stay-at-home motherhood isn't for every mother, and it's not the best situation for every child.
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Post by daworm on Mar 28, 2007 8:31:49 GMT -5
In case you are referencing my post, I don't think women should be confined anywhere. I think whether they work and pursue a career or not should be their choice. However, I think too often it is a poor lifestyle choice that leads to their need to work, rather than a desire to do so. I also think that women with children need to think long and hard about the effect their absence will have on their children, and be fully prepared for the consequences. Just sticking your head in the sand and thinking "They'll be fine at daycare" won't cut it. Our biology limits the things we can do. We are able to work around that, but there are consequences. No one ever experienced the bends until we invented diving equipment to go where our biology says we couldn't. Daycare and bad behavior may well be the women at work version of the bends.
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whimdriven
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Post by whimdriven on Mar 28, 2007 9:07:22 GMT -5
So are you saying that a workaholic father that's never around is a-ok, but a woman should think long and hard about the effects of her "absence?"
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Post by daworm on Mar 28, 2007 11:24:12 GMT -5
Did you see a single word about fathers in any of that? Or did you infer I don't care about what a father does?
Fathers need to be around, too. There is more data to suggest lack of a father (or strong father figure) is harmful than there is about day care, for sure. But again, look at your biology. Fathers were the hunters and gatherers, mothers were the caregivers for the children. Civilization has changed that, and is in the process of changing it even more, but the biological drives and needs are still there, and working against them will have consequences. You can be prepared for those and take steps to deal with them, or you can be surprised when problems occur later on, that's up to you.
I'm certainly not trying to "put women in their place, barefoot and pregnant" and don't want to be perceived that way. All I am saying is that when making career choices that affect child rearing, for the husband or the wife, you should be aware that those choices will have a possibly tremendous effect on the child, and you should weigh those effects against those career choices and choose appropriately. You shouldn't blindly believe that you can do whatever you want and it will have no effect on the child. I don't think very many parents today do that (consider the consequences), and I think it shows in the behavior of the kids, much as this study suggests. Oh, I don't doubt the husbands think working those extremely long hours, or the wifes having their own careers, is ultimately good for their kids because they are providing them with a "better home" or "saving for college", but if the kid feels unloved, neglected, shuffled off and out of the way and turns out bad, none of those things are worth a darn. Some parents avoid this, and make sure to plan plenty of time with their kids in the evenings and on the weekends to make up for the daycare and latch key periods. Most don't, and it shows.
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whimdriven
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Post by whimdriven on Mar 28, 2007 11:31:16 GMT -5
Yep, I didn't see a line in kind about absentee fathers, so I asked a provoking question so you would clarify your position about whether you actually thought the two issues were of equal merit, or if you felt that only the woman need make a sacrificial decision regarding her career.
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Kordax
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Post by Kordax on Mar 28, 2007 11:36:10 GMT -5
And for the feminysts who love to make heroines out of F-male scum (Francine Hughes of Burning Bed fame), here's another heroine ready to be praised & exhaulted -- just look at her reasoning for murdering her husband: "She told authorities in Alabama, where she was found with her daughters the night after the shooting, that she shot her husband because she was upset over his constant criticism of ''the way I walk, what I eat, everything. It was just building up to this point. I was just tired of it. I guess I just got to a point and snapped.''" www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_5448177,00.html Forget minor feminyst issues like the unquestioned right to dump your kids into daycare beacuse your career is the be-all & end-all of a worthy life -- focus on the real deal -- how to murder your husband/boyfriend/significant other (others) & blame the miserable b@stard for making you have to off him ....
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Post by voxpopuli on Mar 28, 2007 14:45:40 GMT -5
Fathers were long ago relegated to second-class status by the very feminists who argued that a woman can have a child and a career at the same time.
In fact, men are so distrusted around children these days, many elementary schools won't even interview qualified male teaching candidates.
So it comes as no surprise that "studies" like this don't even notice their own hypocrisy.
Plus, the study also stated that any noticeable effects dissipated by the age of ten. In other words, no lasting harm or benefit was observed by the end of the fifth grade.
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 28, 2007 21:40:20 GMT -5
Fathers need to be around, too. There is more data to suggest lack of a father (or strong father figure) is harmful than there is about day care, for sure. On a related note, look at the studies that break down the reasons behind the absentee fathers and the effects on the children. Dead fathers (excepting those who were killed in drug deals, etc., which falls into the incarcerated category) leave a void that is almost like the father is present. There are some negative effects, but not as many as others. Those who are absent from the home, but present in the lives of the kids, such as through divorce or having a child out of wedlock, is better than nothing, but still not ideal. Having a father who is absent due to the actions of the mother (making sure he can't see the kids because "I'll show him!") is almost like not having a father in the picture, but often, damages the relationship with the mother in later life. The degree of damage in this situation is on a par with an incarcerated father. The most damaging is the baby-daddy thing that is going on in so many urban welfare wombat homes. There is almost no chance of recovery from this. If I can find the entire article, I'll post it. The link that I saved is expired, though.
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 28, 2007 21:42:40 GMT -5
I actually saw a bumper sticker that said, "Kids need checks not fathers".
I hope it was being cynical towards the outrageous ways the courts act.
I fear that it was serious, though, due to some other liberal whacko bumper stickers that were alongside it.
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Post by mikeydokey on Mar 28, 2007 22:00:50 GMT -5
Is that like when 2 womens meet in the store, and one asks the other " Who yo babies daddy is"?
Did you hear the joke about the two feminists? THAT'S NOT FUNNY
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Jay
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Post by Jay on Mar 28, 2007 22:05:49 GMT -5
"The peak level of the minimum wage, in real terms as well as relative to average hourly wages, was reached in 1968. In December 2004, it would need to have been increased to $8.68 to equal the purchasing power of the statutory minimum wage in February 1968."
The problem is that the actual buying power is less... I find that a pretty sad state of affairs..
~J
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Post by one on Mar 28, 2007 22:19:13 GMT -5
When I was young, both my mother and step dad worked all day. I'd get off the bus, come home, and entertain myself with video games or go to my grandmothers. There were not many kids in the neighborhood, I was the oldest by 2 yrs anyway so it wouldn't have mattered.
Socially, I raised myself. My grandmother was always there to give attention, but I usually chose to go outside and play. I rode my bike through the trails all day, mostly by myself. My boombox was my friend also, lot's of music in my life growing up. I actually chose to be a loaner growing up.
I feel like it helped me greatly to shape my own thoughts without someone else's influence. I taught myself many skills and by doing so analyzed everything thoroughly to completely understand what I was doing rather than simply take directions to do something and never fully understand it.
In adult life I ended up an engineer. No surprise as it continues the exploration of understanding and knowledge I have been searching all my life.
In the end only two major factors ever contributed to my behavior.
- The LACK of bad influences in my life by not socializing with people that could have been pulling me towards bad things.
- The ASS WHIPPINGS my parents gave me when I DID get out of line. Child abuse my ass...... a leather belt or switch will keep the fear of god in kids enough to keep them straight. Everyone here knows good and damn well we screwed up less when the belt came out of the closet.
I am completely socially self raised, I didn't need the parents involved trying to teach me how to behave, just to make sure I stayed in line. There's a huge difference. To this day I have never done drugs, rarely drink, and have kept my nose clean for 30 yrs.
Wanna make kids behave? Whip their ass, and keep them away from snot nosed little trouble makers. END OF STORY.
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Post by one on Mar 28, 2007 22:21:22 GMT -5
....... oh yeah and my parents got divorced when I was 2 and dad took off to Connecticut for 6 yrs until he decided to move back and see me once a year on X-mas for the rest of my life. I don't see any guns, drugs, or drunken rage in my story anywhere... do you?
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Jay
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Post by Jay on Mar 28, 2007 22:56:38 GMT -5
It's good you had a stepdad to keep you in line and whip your ass when you were naughty though. I'm sure that helped....
~J
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Post by one on Mar 28, 2007 23:01:03 GMT -5
Na, he never said anything. He was mostly gone to practice and playing gigs. Rarely home.
He's the founder of Shaking Ray Levi Society.
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Post by one on Mar 28, 2007 23:07:55 GMT -5
.........oh and ironically something you'd be interested in.......... the drummer for the Roger Alan Wade band through the 80's, which is how I know Roger. He (Roger) was (indirectly) dad #2 for me for about 15 yrs LOL. Heck, when you spend all the time at practice running around with the band at shows and traveling you end up adopting everyone as family.
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Jay
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Post by Jay on Mar 28, 2007 23:14:29 GMT -5
Hmmm, well, ummm....between your stepdad and Roger and other guys you had some good male role models? Maybe? (Hoping...)
~J
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Post by Gary on Mar 29, 2007 9:04:49 GMT -5
Raised by Roger Alan Wade. No wonder you ended up here.
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Copperhead
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Post by Copperhead on Mar 31, 2007 22:06:31 GMT -5
This is an interesting dicussion, I must say. I think I'll add my two cents-worth.
I have always been the primary breadwinner in both my first marriage and this one. I've been the one who carried the insurance & provided the stability needed for either husband to do the work he wanted to do. My original plan was to be a stay-at-home mom. Some days, especially with a toddler, it sounds attractive. Sadly, though, it's not a possibility. Such is life, eh?
The challenge I face is, how far do I wish to progress in my field? I would like to progress but am quite attached to the work schedule I have & the perks that accompany it. My job works for my life. 8-4, M-F, no weekends or holidays - quite unlike what I'd experience if I took a position in direct patient care. My children are both within walking distance. In fact, I walk my dd to school every morning. So, for a working mom, I know I have a good situation.
The thing is, though, as I was discussing this with a colleague the other day, is that most of the variables I mentioned probably wouldn't be considered as strongly by a father as it is by a mother...and really, it puzzles me. Why not?
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snarkalicious
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Post by snarkalicious on Mar 31, 2007 22:45:48 GMT -5
My husband and I have always worked opposite shifts so that one of us was always home with the kids. When they were smaller I worked part time evenings and nights, then my husbands job was eliminated. The past seven years I have done the full time, 9-5 thing and he has worked part time. We homeschool our three youngest as well. There have been times we had to place them in childcare, and we found some wonderful providers.
I think the key to raising children falls on the parents-if you are involved in your children's lives, choose the best childcare and education possible for them and spend time teaching them, disciplining them and LISTENING to them, they will turn out to be productive, well adjusted adults.
I am tired of people blaming schools and childcare for their kids' problems.
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