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Post by Justin Thyme on Jun 18, 2008 19:28:11 GMT -5
No, but it may explain that the jackoff of the donorcycle didn't kill her so much as she caused injury to the jackoff on the donorcycle while killing herself through her negligence.
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Post by Tsavodiner on Jun 18, 2008 19:29:38 GMT -5
Well, that'll be an interesting suit-countersuit then, won't it?
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jun 18, 2008 19:39:00 GMT -5
It all depends on what the investigation reveals. It could be that there was contributory negligence from both of them. If that's the case, then, yes the lawsuits will be interesting. From what I've heard here and other places it wouldn't surprise me a bit to hear that both contributed equally to the accident. If the dead woman was, indeed, a crack addict and high at the time of the accident that will influence the findings of the investigation. If the injured motorcyclist was pulling a wheelie and driving wreckless that will also influence the findings. One's own negligence is not negated by another's.
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Longshot! [ Saint ]
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Post by Longshot! [ Saint ] on Jun 19, 2008 12:34:12 GMT -5
I heard she was boogered, and stepped into a traffic lane.
I heard he was doing a 'wheelie'.
It's hard to see a headlight if it's pointing into the sky and not the road, but those demanding fault from one side or the other will rarely recognize that in the end, everyone still loses in these situations.
Party on, lady.
Good luck, Vince.
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Post by erinslion on Jun 20, 2008 15:11:35 GMT -5
I am sorry for the dead woman. I am sorry for the injured boy and I am most sorry for the families of both.
Dave, you know how I value your friendship and I see clearly that you have a personal interest in this situation so I don't want to go too far or say too much (particularly since the facts of the situation aren't known to us common folk yet) but there are a few questions I *have* to ask and a few point I *have* to make.
It ought to be fairly well known by now that I have been a very vocal proponent of motorcycle safety for over 20 years. I wasted a good deal of time arguing on the old forum with the-jackass-who-shan't-be-named-and-is-no-longer-a-member-of-this-board about whether or not wheelies were legal, safe or smart on city streets (they aren't...) So with that in mind:
What sort of helmet was the kid wearing? Was it a real helmet or was it one of those damned plastic novelty helmets that people wear to circumvent helmets laws? I used to be an ardent supporter of helmet laws until some of my libertarian friends weighed in on the matter. I realized that whether there is a helmet law or not I will NEVER be on a bike without a helmet so do I (or does anyone else) have the right to force other riders to wear helmets? Maybe not, maybe if people choose to take those unnecessary risks it's their business. Incidentally, if you are opposed to helmet laws please don't bother me with your arguments of the safety risks helmets pose. It's bullshit. Helmets save lives, period and there is more than enough evidence to support that argument. Just take a look at motorcycle fatalities and catastrophic injuries in states that have repealed helmet laws. That kind of data provides a very real before and after picture of what helmets accomplish so don't try to imply that helmets harm more than they help. Still, if people are willing to take those risks who am I to stop them?
But I ask the question regarding the young man's helmet for this reason: There is currently a helmet law in the state of Tennessee and people do buy unapproved plastic helmets with no safety factor at all to circumvent this law. I ride across Market Street bridge all the time and I can't understand if the young man was doing the speed limit, observing safe riding practices and wearing the proper safety gear why he suffered such severe head trauma?
Again (and I am speaking to you David) I know that you are friends with the boy's father and I absolutely accept that he is a "good kid." It isn't just bad kids who do stupid things. I know you've said his father has assured you that the kid wasn't "on" anything. Would you expect an agonized father to say anything other? I'm not accusing the young man, but I am saying that a categorical denial like that could easily be wishful thinking.
In the end it is possible that the kid wasn't doing a wheelie (though I see so much of that it makes me sick to my stomach), wasn't speeding, wasn't doing anything wrong and that a crackhead did step out in front of him and that it was his relative inexperience riding that resulted in such a calamitous accident.
Whatever the cause it saddens me deeply for both parties. It truly does but perhaps it opens for discussion the topic of motorcycle safety.
Every day I see young inexperienced kids on overpowered bikes. Every day I see young inexperienced kids pulling stunts on city streets and highways (not that long ago I saw two such kids on crotch rockets riding wheelies at 80+ miles an hour on the interstate...) Every day I see young kids on bikes wearing shorts and tank-tops and sandals and plastic helmets and I think, "The first time you drop your bike will be the last time you drop your bike."
Chattanooga State offers a Motorcycle Safety Foundation course that *anyone* who rides ought to consider taking regardless of your experience. Motorcycles are a passion of mine but that doesn't mean that I have any illusions about the inherently dangerous nature of riding and so I remain a vocal proponent of safety and proper riding technique.
I'm not blaming the kid (though I am concerned about his helmet) and I'm not blaming the dead woman. No point in blaming anyone until the facts are known and even then assigning blame really accomplishes nothing (though understanding why the wreck happened may help others to avoid the same situation...)
As Longshot said, everyone loses in these situations.
To my fellow riders I'll simply say take care out there and to you non-riders I'll say be aware of us. The majority of motorcycle fatalities are not rider error, they are the result of cars and trucks that fail to notice bikes on the road.
Jesus, everybody just be careful, ok?
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snarkalicious
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Post by snarkalicious on Jun 23, 2008 18:46:07 GMT -5
Dave, any word on how this young man is doing?
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Post by ericreed on Jun 24, 2008 11:08:19 GMT -5
So the driver was not in control of his vehicual?
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TNBear
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Post by TNBear on Jun 24, 2008 19:18:17 GMT -5
So rumor has it Eric.
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Post by tcrashfx on Jun 25, 2008 3:40:41 GMT -5
That civil court 2% of liability is a bitch, ain't it?
WTF is a vehicual?
I thought he was on a motorcycle.
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Post by northshore on Jun 27, 2008 22:11:51 GMT -5
Judy Bradford was my Aunt. She was a loving and caring person, whom everyone who knew her loved. She was a Christian from Chattanooga, and wearing her Cross when she was struck and tragically killed in plain sight to me, watching and hearing the first responders, as I walked down the hill from my house to cross the same bridge, going to listen to ZZ Top at Riverbend too.
She is missed by her Son, Sisters, Myself, Special Friends, and an entire community. I have not known to, nor known of these types of sites to exist, and with the last weeks of keeping close to my family, and nice memorial celebrations of her life, I had no idea that people would write such untruths to dishonor my aunt falsely in what appears an attempt to pain us further.
Looking through the worst, it appears that the only thing said about my Aunt comes from a friend or family of the injured boy, I think that is very sad of you to write, and we hope that he is well, and hopeful to make a recovery. If you do know him as you say you do, please make sure that he knows we wish him health, but leave out what you've written so horrible and unknown about my Aunt.
I'm honestly not sure what else to write in response to what I have read, except that we once had very good times, holidays, and friends and family would all be able to tell you that my aunt was a special and good person, attended church whenever the door was open, and that there is no way for you to know how hurtful it is to find here, what you wrote.
A boy is now motherless, not much older than the young boy that we pray for his health to recover.
Judy had a beautiful memorial service and burial, and our hearts will always be heavy for the soft spoken words, love and kindness she brought to our lives and everyone's she touched in her life cut tragically short.
We hope and pray in our own loss, for this boy to recover, and hope that everyone who may have read that earlier post to feel our sincerest love for my special and wonderful aunt, Judy Bradford.
I had to see this accident from my home on the North Side, where my family and I can see by just looking down from our homes windows, the Market Street Bridge, where we now cross the bridge daily to forever remember this tragedy that took the life a loving and kind woman, who so many people loved and have memorialized these last two weeks.
Please pray for the boy, and please give no more power to a friend of family,who at some point in this blog gave left a horrible note (from or by a family member or friend of the boy's) we don't understand why you would say these things, but please, without knowing my loving and caring Aunt,
If anybody can truthfully care to send a message without actually knowing someone, please think of a loved one you've lost, a special person, but above all, someone who was as sweet and caring for others as my Aunt was to all who knew her, and if you care to share your loss, or feel you can understand ours, please just respond with a loving message to the friends and family of Judy Bradford, her motherless child, and the rest of the family, or in memorial of a wonderful, sweet, loving, caring person you may have lost, and celebrate their life with kindness, by writing something sweet about anyone you loved.
I miss my MeMaw too.
Judy, you were loved, and you will be greatly missed. Judy always told her friends and family she loved them instead of goodbye, Judy, I love you too.
Marty
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Post by tcrashfx on Jun 28, 2008 9:12:52 GMT -5
Full face, DOT approved. Investigations continues..............
Well said, northshore.
A human perspective all but forgotten in all the other hoopla which tends to surround crashes such as this.
Having worked crashes involving 175+ fatalities, I constantly need to remind myself (Or be reminded) that each one affected more than just the participants.
I am also aware, too aware sometimes (Like this past week) that, as Nietzsche said, "When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
Job security sometimes sucks.
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osrb
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Post by osrb on Jun 28, 2008 12:31:22 GMT -5
As some one who has been riding for over 20 years I will admit I generally automatically blame the non rider. I also have seen many idiots riding their zip and splats doing stunts. I have read a number of stories on this accident the general story is that the rider was doing stunts and the lady stepped in front of him. If the rider was not using common sense when riding around large crowds then I would have to put the fault in his hands. Just like with a car you must anticipate someone stepping out from the crowd.
erinslion knows my views on helmets so I will not get into that argument.
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Post by erinslion on Jun 28, 2008 12:50:16 GMT -5
Yes OSRB, I know your feelings regarding helmets and there is no need to argue about it. I have said here and elsewhere that the government has no business forcing you to wear one if you don't want to wear one. Your melon, your noggin, your brain box, your business.
Just don't try to claim that not wearing a helmet is somehow safer than wearing one.
T'ain't true.
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Post by Tsavodiner on Jun 28, 2008 19:45:26 GMT -5
e.lion, I presume you're gifted with adequate insurance and assets to cover every eventuality. You would know far better than I, given your recent experience from which, Thank God, you are recovering. The only issue I take with the preceding statement is in cases where riders experience catastrophic, yet non-fatal, injuries resulting in long-term intensive care or nursing home confinement, where the victim has no insurance or assets. Erlanger MC is cutting jobs; some of these are attrition, but some good, hard-working folk there are getting shown the door at least in part due to the overwhelming, and growing, non-recoverable expenses due to indigent care. Why, oh why, should some poor unfortunate who wants nothing more than a job, home, and food on the table suffer because of the selfish irresponsibility of some jerk who wants their FREEDOM to ride their damn bike without a helmet?
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Post by Warkitty on Jun 28, 2008 20:04:38 GMT -5
No damn good reason at all. That anyone thinks its a good thing to let helmets be optional makes me twitch. Visiting states where they ARE optional often leaves me yelling (albeit uselessly) at the idiots that don't wear them.
Then again, I started cussing over the idiot earlier today on I75 near Acworth that thought it was a good idea to split the lanes to speed through traffic at 90mph. A boneheaded, selfish and idiotic act that can land not just the biker in the hospital but also hurt someone else.
Sadly, death from wrecking isn't the worst that can happen, and tsavo in this instance apparently shares me opinion on this (I know, I'm shocked too). Don't want to wear a helmet? Stay on four wheels. Don't even get on a bicycle. Stick with cars.
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snarkalicious
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Post by snarkalicious on Jun 28, 2008 23:42:18 GMT -5
Northshore, my deepest sympathies for your loss....
Shannon
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Post by erinslion on Jun 29, 2008 1:23:34 GMT -5
Yes, I was fortunate enough to have insurance at the time of the accident. My treatment and recovery have been a very expensive affair, though I cannot praise the EMTs, the staff at Erlanger and my surgeon highly enough. The level of care they gave me was absolutely outstanding and has played a large role in my unusually speedy recovery.
I would have a very hard time living with myself if my medical expenses were at taxpayer's expense and I mean that most sincerely.
Tsavo, your point is a very good one and one I have made many times myself when arguing in favor or helmet laws with my libertarian friends (there may be people opposed to helmet laws who aren't libertarians but I haven't met them...)
The responding argument (and this is not my argument) is that catastrophic accidents involving unhelmeted riders are almost always fatal whereas helmeted riders sometimes survive catastrophic accidents and then go on to become burdens to the state. I haven't seen statistical evidence to support this but I am inclined to believe that riders without helmets suffer a much higher mortality rate.
Understand that I am absolutely in favor of motorcycle safety and supported helmet laws for all of my adult life. My eventual capitulation on the argument was a response to the suggestion that if helmets are mandated to reduce the burden to the state then activities ranging from rock climbing to over-eating and heavy drinking should be banned to reduce the burden incurred by the state when uninsured individuals incur medical expenses. What kind of expense do uninsured smokers lay at the feet of the government when emphysema finally kicks in versus the expense of treating motorcycle injuries resulting from not wearing helmets?
I can't emphasize strongly enough that these are not my arguments. Whether there are helmet laws or not I will never. never be on a motorcycle without an approved helmet in good condition and that stance is why I finally said, "Ok, if you don't think you need a helmet I guess it's your business. (but I'll be wearing mine...)"
I believe that every motorcycle rider should be wearing the full complement of recommended safety gear including a good helmet, long pants, boots, gloves and a jacket, be it leather or kevlar. Furthermore I agree with Tcrashfx that potential riders should be required to take and pass a Motorcycle Safety Foundation course before being licensed. I love motorcycles but I am appalled at the lack of safety and common sense exhibited by wave after wave of young riders.
I finally backed off of motorcycle helmet laws because:
1. I will always wear a helmet, law or no.
2. Those who refuse to will continue to circumvent the law by wearing plastic "novelty" helmets (easily recognized by their thin shell and most commonly available in "skid lid" and "WWII" styles.) These faux helmets are sold in most cycle shops for about $20, are clearly labeled inside as "novelty only" and offer no protection whatsoever but they keep police officers at bay by providing the illusion that the rider is wearing a helmet. Actually I think they are very easy to spot and doubt seriously that any law enforcement officer is ever fooled but the time, money and manpower to start pulling over and ticketing the "faux helmet" offenders would be massive. I'd like very much to hear from those of you who are in law enforcement regarding the problem and whether anything can be done about it. I have no solid statistics and refuse to make up numbers but if you'll accept my anecdotal evidence I can tell you that I see more fake helmets on the road than real ones.
3. It is a tricky business to legislate common sense.
Honestly, the "go to" guys on this subject are O.S.R.B. and HomebrewDave. O.S.R.B. is an experienced rider who feels strongly that helmets should be optional, H.B.D. is a libertarian who feels the government has no right to mandate individual safety (i.e. helmets, seat belts...)
Personally, I'm going to stack the odds in my favor every time whether I'm on a bike or in a car. Harder for me to make everyone else do the same.
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osrb
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Post by osrb on Jun 29, 2008 11:09:29 GMT -5
While my main reason for not having mandatory helmet laws are the same as H B D's. A large portion is the reason is stated above. I would rather be DOA then a burden on my family when there is no hope of ever having a real life again. I have the utmost respect for erinslion and WK not only because I have known them for many a year,they ride so they and not those people who have never ridden and wants to force their view on those who do. Let those who ride decide.
I am 100% in favor of safety classes for all riders. I took the Motorcycle safety Foundations advanced rider course in 1987. I was the best thing that could have happened. I was shown the proper way to handle situations. It has helped me keep the rubber sided down. Like so many I started riding by having a friend show me the basics then I just went from there. Because of this I did not know how to avoid curtain situations and I have the scars to prove it.
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Post by tcrashfx on Jun 30, 2008 4:41:48 GMT -5
I have never quite understood the desire to go helmetless. Kinda like I have never understood fellow LE who refuse to wear body armor on duty. I had one cop tell me he kept his vest in his trunk in case he needed it. I told him if I ever knew when I was going to need it, I would call in sick that day. Same guy never wore his seat belt either, same reason. He was also one of the last to convert from a revolver to an automatic duty weapon. I'd like to hear the safety pros of going helmetless vs the safety cons of wearing a DOT helmet; which is what the argument should boil down to instead of the "Guvmint has no right to protect me from myself" line. Is it the same feeling one gets when technical mountain climbing sans a belay? Or train surfing? Hell, even BASE Jumpers and hang gliders wear helmets (And all other available safety equipment) so it has to be more than a living on the edge thing. I put more stock in the "I know it's more dangerous to go helmetless, but I like to go helmetless for the feeling of freedom" crowd than I do for the "The guvmint has no right to tell me what to do as long as it is my life" crowd. What has stopped every Helmet Free Tennessee movement in changing the helmet law was the proffer by the legislators who added to the proposed bill that those who choose to go sans helmet, must demonstrate (Via bond or very high insurance premiums) the ability to pay, themselves or their heirs, for all their medical treatment. This shows me that the anti-helmet crowds wants the guvmint (Or society as a whole) out of their lives until it comes time for the guvmint (Or society as a whole) to pay for the typical helmetless results of the guvmint (Or society as a whole) being kept out of their lives. Now, I did successfully fight to retain the "Half shell" DOT approved SHOEI helmet (As opposed to the "3/4 helmet" DOT Approved) for LE motor operators due to the fact hat one cannot unhelmet a 3/4 helmet one handed; as we sometimes must kill/drop the motor, unhelmet and draw our weapon at the same time, if faced with an immediate tactical situation. ************************************************* New Study Shows California Motorcycle Helmet Law Saves Money
ScienceDaily (Sep. 19, 1998) — The California law that requires motorcycle drivers to wear helmets saved the state and its taxpayers a significant amount of money during its first two years, primarily by reducing the number of head injuries associated with motorcycle accidents, a new University of California San Francisco study has found.
The study, published in the September 15 edition of The Journal of Trauma: Injury, Infection and Critical Care, shows that total medical costs for motorcycle accident-related injuries were $35 million less in 1993 than 1991, a reduction of 35 percent. The total medical cost for motorcycle crash injuries dropped from about $98 million in 1991 to about $63 million in 1992 and 1993, the first two years of the helmet law.
Total medical costs included hospitalizations, emergency department care, outpatient care, rehabilitation and follow-up care. Though the law, which went into effect on Jan. 1, 1992, has successfully reduced the number of serious head injuries and deaths caused by motorcycle accidents, there is still opposition, primarily from motorcyclists who want to choose whether to wear helmets.
However, the UCSF study "which marks the first time researchers have taken a statewide look at the law's economic impact" shows the law clearly makes economic sense, researchers said.*(*Emphasis added) So are we arguing safety or freedom here?
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jun 30, 2008 7:32:39 GMT -5
It sounds like we are arguing economics.
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osrb
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Post by osrb on Jun 30, 2008 9:29:08 GMT -5
I grew up a learned to ride in Nazi Jersey. For a number of years I felt the same way about helmets at WK, erinslion , and tcrash. I moved to So Cal in 1987 when at the time time we could still ride with out a helmet. At first I was thinking these people are nuts not wearing a helmet. But one day I was in Costa Mesa down by the beach. I was riding with a group and took my helmet off since we were just riding on the city streets and it was hot out (I had a full face helmet). I found that I liked it. That it added another sense of freedom for me. It is not something I can explain even to another rider who does not feel the same way that I do. It is just who I feel.
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Post by Warkitty on Jun 30, 2008 9:49:34 GMT -5
My friend Terry got me to ride. First he and Bill pointed me to the best local motorcycle safety course, then Terry hooked me up with a friend of a friend to rent a motorcycle. I picked it up as I left town after the safety course (as in, an hour after). Terry and Bill then escorted me from Murfreesboro to Chattanooga on bikes to be certain I was riding properly.
Terry told me a story that I've kept close in mind ever since. He had a good 20 years riding experience back then (and that was a decade ago), so he'd started riding before there were helmet laws in the state (he wasn't in TN at the time, mind you) and one of his closest buddies got HIM riding. Well, soon after getting on his bike back then, he and his buddy went for a ride. They were coming up on a stop sign and had slowed down tremendously when his buddy's wheel hit something in the road he'd not seen. Maybe it was a painted arrow that got wet or an oil spill, but the upshot was his buddy went down with the bike while going maybe 5mph. He hit his head on the curb and died instantly because he was not wearing a helmet. I figure however much you "like the freedom" you're an idiot for riding sans headgear. Again, notice I wear a helmet on my bicycle too (and don't ride with non-helmeted folk, either. Nothing says "I'm a loser who had my license revoked" more than a dude on a bicycle without a helmet.)
Are we arguing economics as Justin asks? Well, yes but that's what it usually comes down to. Economic and Darwinism I suppose. I just happen to go with the economics in this one. You want the helmet law revoked? Agree to the full insurance and waiver of liability. I do not care to fix the financial mess you'll leave behind for your family when you wreck.
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osrb
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Post by osrb on Jun 30, 2008 12:23:08 GMT -5
Well WK we can all tell of people that we either knew or someone we know knew that was killed on a bike. I my self have known a couple of people both with and without helmets that had taken their last ride. Just because someone chooses different then you on this subject does not make them stupid or ignorant of the facts we just look at thinks different. I know each time I get on my bike what the risks are and still choose to take them just like you. I grew up never wearing a helmet on my BMX bike back in the day. I remember riding through the woods jumping ramp and all sorts of crazy stuff. I know back then there was not this safety awareness that we have today and now we know better. Right? It is a choice thing I will ware a helmet on my mtn bike when I go off road or am with a group that requires it. It is not that I am against wearing helmets I just believe that I should have the right to choose.
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Post by tcrashfx on Jul 2, 2008 4:20:47 GMT -5
Chattanooga: Witnesses detail fatal bridge accident
By: Jacqueline Koch Less than a month after Vincent Scott Proffitt was involved in a motorcycle accident that left a pedestrian dead, the 18-year-old from Soddy-Daisy nearly has recovered physically, a friend says. On June 12, Mr. Proffitt was riding his motorcycle south on the Market Street Bridge during the Riverbend Festival when his vehicle struck Judy Bradford, 50, about 500 feet from Frazier Avenue, according to police reports. Ms. Bradford, of 717 E. 11th St., was pronounced dead at the scene, according to reports. Chattanooga police spokeswoman Sgt. Jerri Weary said last week that police are awaiting toxicology results before they decide whether to file charges against Mr. Proffitt, who was released from Erlanger hospital June 24. Obtaining results of such tests can take up to 60 days, she said.
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Post by LimitedRecourse on Jul 2, 2008 11:46:15 GMT -5
A nice article from a friend's point of view. Other eyewitness accounts would have been nice.
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Tookie
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Post by Tookie on Jul 2, 2008 12:32:44 GMT -5
I thought that too, LR.
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Post by fftspam on Jul 3, 2008 1:26:20 GMT -5
Yeah, the TFP usually does a good job... but when they gave such a glowing account of this innocent 18 year old motorcyclist who was just riding across the bridge minding his own business when this women stepped into his path... only quoting people that were admitted friends and/or acquaintances.... that just didn't sit well with me. But, with all the conflicting eyewitness accounts, Id guess we'll never really know what happened. Or rather, he won't be charged with anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 6:59:44 GMT -5
When wearing a helmet doesn't make sense: Google for more. Pretty darned good.
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Post by erinslion on Jul 18, 2008 8:10:42 GMT -5
That looks like the cliffs of Moher...
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Longshot! [ Saint ]
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Post by Longshot! [ Saint ] on Jul 20, 2008 19:52:40 GMT -5
Relatives & Friends of those involved, I stand by my initial statement.
I can't offer further observations until the final police report reveals whether the young man was on one wheel or not.I don't care if she was drunk or that he was ona bike...but working Riverbend that night, my witness accounts are not the same as the 'newspaper acounts' here, so we'll ust have to see.
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