Senator Reid's Claim

[traveler]

KIA ratios aren't extant justification.

And just where did I say they were? My comment preceding the numbers specifically referred to perspective. Once again, LT, you are displaying your very bad habit of twisting others' words to match your argument rather than responding to what was actually said.

[legaltender]

So arguing KIA ratios aren't historically awful supports the "don't-cut-and-run" talking point.

Got it.

[BlackFox]

traveler said:

It's more valuable than your rearview irrelevancies.

I realize this may be a new concept but some of us, like myself, use history for perspective and as a guide to avoid the similar mistakes in the future.

Gen. Colin Powell, secretary of State in President Bush's first term, said his Vietnam generation learned from that experience to go into conflicts only with a defined mission, an overwhelming force and a clear exit strategy — and to reassess quickly if the mission changes. Unfortunately, in Iraq, the Powell Doctrine took a back seat to neoconservative fantasies.

Lost the source, but it speaks for itself. There's some history to use as a guide to avoid making similar mistakes in the future....oh yea, too late.

[traveler]

So arguing KIA ratios aren't historically awful supports the "don't-cut-and-run" talking point.

Again, LT, you are driving home my point about your apparently inate ability at twisting words to suit your argument. Please cite at any point at which I have made any judgemental comments on KIA ratios being good or bad.

[traveler]

Unfortunately, in Iraq, the Powell Doctrine took a back seat to neoconservative fantasies.

That is a different discussion/argument. We are where we are and the question still remains; where do we go from here? Do we honor our responsibility as a nation and help stabliize the region or do we cut and run and let the chips fall where they may?

Full circle on this discussion. There are only two options.

I remain in the "let's complete the job and commit to victory" camp. Others are in the "defund, cut and run" camp.

[daworm]

Ken, while I am in the "complete the job" camp too, I do see that there are more options than just "Do it at all costs" and "pack up and leave tomorrow". Some see, and I can just barely twist my way of thinking to see where they are coming from, threatening to leave the country as a way to force the Iraqi government to do the things it should be doing now and isn't. But, it is fairly clear that even they do not expect the Iraqi government to do anything. Look at the way their arguments are worded, all about benchmarks, but always with the assumption the troops will be coming home (which means the assumption that the benchmarks won't be met).

There is also the question of whether our "surge" is the best or only way to "complete the job". Several believe that troops versus militants disguised as citizens will never work. I think it could, but I also think it would require more troops than we have at the moment. A door to door sweep only works if you hit every door, and continuously so that they can't move from in front of the sweep to behind it without detection. We don't have the troops for that, nor are we likely to get any. We also can't indiscriminately bomb the crap out of any place where we know there are militants, because the collateral damage of the innocents* they are hiding behind is too great (as we've already found out). (* Although I question how many are truly innocents.)

My biggest problem is that neither side is proposing what I consider a viable alternative. I do not think cutting and running is an option, because I don't believe we should just give up. We have a responsibility to the Iraqi people, whether they want us to fulfill it or not. We made this mess, and it is up to us, if not to clean it up ourselves, at least make sure the Iraqi people are allowed to clean it up unmolested. I don't think we can or should shirk that responsibility. So I cannot support the Democrats at all. I am left supporting the Republicans, not so much because I agree with their strategy, but because they are the only ones doing anything at all.

[traveler]

DaWorm, I cannot argue at all with your points. I particularly like and agree with the last paragraph. I do hope there are other options/solutions which have not been presented but which might be a better course than we are currently on. But the current course/strategy, good or bad, needs time to embed before any type of judgement can really be made regarding its success.

I can't and don't defend every decision that has been made to this point on either side of of the political aisle but we do have a tremendous responsibility as a nation to see this thing through.

[legaltender]

Please cite at any point at which I have made any judgemental comments on KIA ratios being good or bad.

Glad to -- although "good or bad" was added on your own dime:

Our mortality rate in Iraq is, with the exception of the Revolutionary War, lower than any other war in which we have engaged.

Should we now change our policy to one that says we will never go to war if there is any risk of death of any troops?

Which poster said we should adopt a policy of never going to war if we risk death? A rhetorical question without some atecedent is a construction lost on most people.

We are where we are and the question still remains; where do we go from here? Do we honor our responsibility as a nation and help stabliize the region or do we cut and run and let the chips fall where they may?

This is your talking point and feel free to beat it like a rented mule. It's a false dichotomy, in my opinion.

Left to their own devices, Sunni extremists may kill off al-Qaeda in Iraq jihadists in order to protect their own tribal turf. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity we can and should exploit. A power struggle has erupted: al-Qaeda’s reign of terror is being challenged. Our withdrawal might accelerate that purge.

[Dreamwebber]

DaWorm, I do agree with part of your point to me. I personally don't find this war keeping me from being enslaved as I can go on a day to day basis if I really wanted to without even realizing that there were our men and women in Iraq risking their lives on a day to day basis. Those who wish to do us harm have more than likely already infiltrated our country...for ex yesterday the announcement about the terrorist plot at Fort Dix. But, even in that case the shopkeeper told the authorites in 2005 and they just now were able to have the evidence.

An islamic terrorist is born everyday we could stay in Iraq until the end of time (btw the terrorists in NJ....none of them had origins from Iraq..I think it was Jordan, Syria, Yugoslavia)

I am sorry but, the country that we are trying to help rebuild's gov't wants to take a two month recess.....I am sorry....why are we still there again??? obviously they are taking our services for granted or just haven't caught a clue. Maybe we should just let our troops have that same two month recess.

[traveler]

Our mortality rate in Iraq is, with the exception of the Revolutionary War, lower than any other war in which we have engaged.

Should we now change our policy to one that says we will never go to war if there is any risk of death of any troops?

Which poster said we should adopt a policy of never going to war if we risk death? A rhetorical question without some atecedent is a construction lost on most people.

First comment was simply a non perjorative statement of fact. Twisting it around to fit your needs does not change that. The second clearly was a rhetorical question as part of a rebuttal response to add perspective to the numbers provided by Blackfox. Its intent, which seems to be lost on you, LT, in your zeal to twist my words, was to point out that there are costs to war, including lives. It is important to keep proper perspective relative to past wars.

[traveler]

I am sorry but, the country that we are trying to help rebuild's gov't wants to take a two month recess.....

I do have a problem with that as well and do not understand it.

[daworm]

As if our government isn't about to do the same thing?

[traveler]

Yeah, but our country is actually better off when Congress is not in session....far better off.

[legaltender]

Its intent, which seems to be lost on you, LT, in your zeal to twist my words, was to point out that there are costs to war, including lives.

Yada. Yada. We know there are "costs to war." What point were you offering other than to cynically suggest Iraq is a relatively non-lethal op? No one from the other side ever proposed "we will never go to war if there is any risk of death of any troops." A pointless, right-wing canard.

There is cause for optimism, as suggested. al-Qaeda’s reign of terror is being challenged. Timing our withdrawal might take advantage of and accelerate that "cleansing" even if results in bloodshed we would otherwise renounce. At the very least, it is an opportunity we should exploit.

This isn't encouraging:


Baghdad Christian District Besieged

BAGHDAD -- Christians are fleeing in droves from the southern Baghdad district of Dora after Sunni insurgents told them they would be killed unless they converted to Islam or left, according to Christian leaders and families who fled.

Similar episodes of what has become known as sectarian cleansing raged through Baghdad neighborhoods last year as Sunnis drove Shiites from Sunni areas and Shiites drove Sunnis from Shiite ones, but this marks the first apparent attempt to empty an entire Baghdad neighborhood of Christians, the Christians say.

The exodus began three weeks ago after a fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Sunni insurgents offering Christians a stark choice: to convert to Islam and pay an ancient Islamic tax known as jizyah, or to depart within 24 hours and leave their property behind. If they did neither, they said, they faced death.

www.chicagotribune.com

[legaltender]

Hey, Iraq's Parliament Speaker is telling U.S. critics of their two-month summer vacation to kiss off:

"You had better try and control Nancy Pelosi rather than Mahmoud al-Mashhadani," the speaker said.

www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/09/africa/ME-GEN-Iraq-Summer-Break.php

[bernardjenkins]

Than during that two months we should come home and just see what the speaker comes back to.