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Post by LimitedRecourse on May 29, 2012 14:53:35 GMT -5
"You attack aceman & me gratuitously." - Not according to Tnbear.
"So much for you not being mean-spirited and divisive." - I never a made a claim on this point one way or the other.
"Now you whine..." - I haven't whined...not even a small whimper.
"Aside from your attempts to weasel out of having to take personal responsibility for who you are and in what you (may) believe..." - You have OBVIOUSLY never read a lot of my posts (and since I offer the greatest amount on this board, I am baffled by this, but I digress) because if you had, you would know that in MOST discussions on this board, I am CRITICIZED by many with differing opinions BECAUSE I insist that each person be held responsible for their actions.
"... you rarely offer more then sound and fury." You are entitled to your opinion.
"You signify nothing." - And yet you take an hour to craft such a pithy response to "nothing."
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Post by gridbug on May 29, 2012 15:02:55 GMT -5
Actually if you read the letter in question you'll see they are taking offense at the prayers being exclusively Christian. They also state that worshipping on the taxpayers' dime is inappropriate.
You are arguably being illogical by your own logic.
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Post by LimitedRecourse on May 29, 2012 15:28:11 GMT -5
Negative. The lawsuit is to end ALL PRAYER at HC Commission meetings.
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Post by ssmynkint on May 29, 2012 16:13:04 GMT -5
LR, too bad you don't read or remember your own posts. Whatever TN Bear wrote, you made a gratuitous attack, which you condemn in others. You've repeatedly denied being mean-spirited, etc. and have accused others of being mad at the world, something that seems to apply to you. Yes, you insist others do what you do not; that's why I called you on your hypocrisy. It is rare that you offer an actual argument, altho you demand such from others. And quoting scriptures is only an opinion, not an argument. I know none of this will penetrate your word of illusions, and that is just as well; you would be lost without them. I hope at some point your god helps you search and warm your heart.
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JC
Full Forumite
No Messiah
Posts: 1,919
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Post by JC on May 29, 2012 16:32:52 GMT -5
Actually if you read the letter in question you'll see they are taking offense at the prayers being exclusively Christian. They also state that worshipping on the taxpayers' dime is inappropriate. You are arguably being illogical by your own logic. Doesn't matter if the prayer is specific to one religion or not. A government official leading a prayer while on the clock is "government establishing a religion and is unconstitutional. This one thing was so important to the Founding fathers that they put it in writing first.
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TNBear
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,285
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Post by TNBear on May 29, 2012 19:50:55 GMT -5
LR, has it occurred to you that lacking logic and illogical are two different things? First you accuse me of one thing and when I respond you shift to accusing me of something else. Have you been taking lessons from Justin?
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 29, 2012 20:06:21 GMT -5
LR, has it occurred to you that lacking logic and illogical are two different things? First you accuse me of one thing and when I respond you shift to accusing me of something else. Have you been taking lessons from Justin? What have I ever accused you of?
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Post by el Gusano on May 30, 2012 0:24:51 GMT -5
This one thing was so important to the Founding fathers that they put it in writing first. Is that why George Washington led prayers of congress, and why Ben Franklin said it was important?
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JC
Full Forumite
No Messiah
Posts: 1,919
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Post by JC on May 30, 2012 2:23:50 GMT -5
Deists. Myth: candst.tripod.com/franklin.htmFirst item of the first amendment of the Constitution. Can't argue with that. Why is that so hard to understand?
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Post by wheels on May 30, 2012 12:34:43 GMT -5
A government official leading a prayer while on the clock is "government establishing a religion and is unconstitutional. the hamilton county commission is not a federal entity, so is your statement true?
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JC
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No Messiah
Posts: 1,919
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Post by JC on May 30, 2012 13:37:54 GMT -5
Yes. See the 14th Amendment
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Post by LimitedRecourse on May 30, 2012 14:35:12 GMT -5
Illogical = not logical = lacking logic.
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Post by LimitedRecourse on May 30, 2012 14:37:17 GMT -5
"... your word of illusions..."
Magical?
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Post by ssmynkint on May 30, 2012 16:10:59 GMT -5
sorry. World.
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Post by Half-Tard on May 30, 2012 16:12:19 GMT -5
I don't know, I'll play your silly game was it?
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Post by Tsavodiner on May 30, 2012 21:15:41 GMT -5
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Post by Half-Tard on May 31, 2012 0:07:38 GMT -5
Thanks, I'm all fulled up with hobbies..preciate ya!!
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Post by ssmynkint on May 31, 2012 6:30:23 GMT -5
Thought you had to believe to be an asp grasper. Must be thinking of something else.....
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Post by wheels on May 31, 2012 12:30:09 GMT -5
Yes. See the 14th Amendment i guess i didn't realize that it applied to local governments. makes sense, though. however, how does leading a prayer while on the clock equate to establishing a religion? if everyone was forced to pray, i could see the argument. i'm not defending prayer at commission meetings. it just seems more like a sensitivity issue than a constitutional one.
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Post by gridbug on May 31, 2012 13:08:18 GMT -5
The Council, by ending the prayer "in Jesus' name we pray", is making the prayer exclusively Christian. The prayer is done as an established part of an official meeting and is therefore an official recognition of one religion over all others. Take away a few critical words and the controversy evaporates, turning "unconstitutional" to merely "inefficiency"
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JC
Full Forumite
No Messiah
Posts: 1,919
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Post by JC on May 31, 2012 13:49:41 GMT -5
Yes. See the 14th Amendment i guess i didn't realize that it applied to local governments. makes sense, though. however, how does leading a prayer while on the clock equate to establishing a religion? if everyone was forced to pray, i could see the argument. i'm not defending prayer at commission meetings. it just seems more like a sensitivity issue than a constitutional one. The TN Constitution has similar language,too.
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Post by Half-Tard on May 31, 2012 21:17:11 GMT -5
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Post by gridbug on Jun 1, 2012 6:39:03 GMT -5
Politicians making a fair compromise? It can still happen!
but will it stick?
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BlackFox
Senior Forumite
Stay thirsty my friends
Posts: 4,496
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Post by BlackFox on Jun 1, 2012 7:27:45 GMT -5
This is America damnit! You're free to worship our lord and saviour Jesus Christ in any way you see fit!
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Post by ssmynkint on Jun 1, 2012 7:55:35 GMT -5
Hialeah, brother!
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jun 1, 2012 8:54:34 GMT -5
I have one question about this. Are the commissioners saying the prayer for themselves or are they also leading the observers in prayer?
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osrb
Senior Forumite
Semper Fi
Mostly Harmless
Posts: 3,150
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Post by osrb on Jun 1, 2012 9:40:44 GMT -5
This is America damnit! You're free to worship our lord and saviour Jesus Christ in any way you see fit! I will stick with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have seen it at Dragoncon so I know it is real.
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Post by Fire and Ice on Jun 1, 2012 12:51:35 GMT -5
First off let me say this is Dragon Lady (see page 2 of the introductions in General) Lost my log in information so I started a new account. *waves to everyone*
ANYWAY ... LimitedRecourse "Mark 16:15 Matthew 28:19 Acts 1:2 Colossians 1:23"
Um, not sure where you were going with these Bible verse quotes but I am assuming you were posting to say it was a Christian's responsibility to inform and convert the world, for lack of a better way to put it?? And if that is so let me remind you ... this was always said to the 11 disciples in every verse you quoted ... NOT to the general public. Because I did read before and after these verses to get COMPLETE context. From the way I remember it, it’s not your average Joe Blow's responsibility to bring followers into the church, this is why there were appointed disciples and missionaries.
Ok, I am NOT Christian. I don't like public prayer any more than the rest of us non-Christians. As a matter of fact "in Jebus' name we pray" sounds just like fingernails down a chalkboard to me. BUT ... Christians have the right to pray just like us non-Christians have the right not to believe. Let the Christians pray where they want to ... in church, in HC commission meetings, in the middle of the road in heavy traffic ... It don't make no never mind to me. Why? Because no matter how much they pray for my soul to be saved. No matter how much they pray I will see the light. No matter what they say in their prayer, and as irritating as it may be, it is not going to change the fact that I am not Christian. These pushy Christians are not strong enough to change my belief in not believing LOL
As far as their religion being forced down our non-believing throats ... well that is just silly. Hearing prayer may be irritating as hell to us, but they are just words. No one is forcing you to listen or believe. If it offends you that much put your little fingers into your ears and walk in circles chanting "I can't hear you I'm not listening"
Sounds to me like everyone wants their belief mentioned in "opening prayers". Frankly, that is just not possible, not to mention really childish. It literally sounds like the school yard banter "BOOHOO I didn't get my name called for kickball. I'm gonna go throw a fit to get attention!" Maybe that whole separation of church and state thing had a greater purpose ... to keep the petty BS out of office ... hmm imagine that!
Seriously, I don't think prayer has a place in HC commission meetings, but at the same time I am not going to be all offended if they pray cause I do have the right to plug my ears or walk out until prayer is over just as anyone else has the right to pray.
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Post by ssmynkint on Jun 1, 2012 14:25:54 GMT -5
Welcome back!
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Post by Dragon Lady on Jun 1, 2012 17:24:42 GMT -5
Thanks, and I obviously got my Dragon Lady account going again so I will delete Fire and Ice.
P.S. Thanks Gary for the help getting this one up again.
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