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Post by brainerdbill on Mar 21, 2007 20:59:58 GMT -5
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 21, 2007 21:24:07 GMT -5
Yea that is all we do. Sit at the Salvation Army and eat donuts.
Seems like this guy wants to pay as much for the cops as he does for his internet service.
I bet he bitches when Juno is not as fast as every other Internet company too. You gets what you pays for.
You are in fear for your wife and kid in the neighborhood you chose to live in? Move, maybe? Or maybe take a pro-active stance against the thuggery instead of writing letters?
How about you get up off your ass and do something to resolve the problem instead of expecting others to do it for ya? And you expect the "others' to do it at no cost to you?
Gimme a break.
You voted (Or failed to vote) for the legislators (Who make the laws and the sentencing guidelines) and the Judges (Who sentence the offender if he/she is found guilty), yet you blame the donut eatin', lolly gagging Salvation Army parking lot guards for the problem?
You wanna put ALL the guilty criminals behind bars and then whine cause your taxes are too high.
You think they build prisons for free, or what?
Heaven forbid they put a halfway house in Brainerd?
You have gotten what you have been willing to pay for. Hate it for ya.
So share with us your solution to your problem?
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 21, 2007 22:05:07 GMT -5
The guy should read the book, "Take Back Your Neighborhood" and get an idea of what his responsibilities are.
Then, he should stop and pay for your donuts.
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Kordax
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Post by Kordax on Mar 21, 2007 22:16:12 GMT -5
Crash, some neighborhoods demand & receive police response at the drop of a pin while others endure criminals & criminal activity on a routine basis. The petty vandals who screwed with art work along the sacred riverfront section of town nearly were tried as hardened gang members after a loud mouthed judge parroted marching orders delivered to her by well-healed insiders with a vested interest in that section of town. Some sections like Riverview or Missionary Ridge or Cummings Cove or any number of upscale neighborhoods demand police protection & they have connected residents willing to exert whatever level of political/connection influence they can bring to the table to get you guys doing more for them. Other sections of town don't have well connected business owners, trust fund preppies, art donating superior-ites -- they are totally dependent on the system as the system chooses to unfurl itself on their behalf.
I feel sorry for the good people who are trapped in bad, deteriorating neighborhoods like St. Elmo & Highland Park -- crime, criminals -- their presence equals blight & decay & a miserable life. Since the city has orchestrated the destruction of the MLK, the between Broad St/Market St housing stock, and Alton Park grant money free for all, criminals & their pathological families & friends are moving out & into formerly decent sections of town -- Chattanooga better get a handle on the hot spots & ARREST the bastards over & over until they're put away -- anything else means more blight & more crime.....
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 1:53:39 GMT -5
I completely agree with what Kordax just wrote, and might add that I am sure when this person probably bought their home, that it was not believed to have such gang activity. I am more than positive that they did not just say, "Hey honey, let's move in here and hope things get better". Also, I am sure their home is not worth what they paid for it anymore and with having a new baby in the mix, money might be a little tight to move to a safer area. All this is based on speculation on my part as I have no clue who these people are, but, it only seems logical to me that they did not move willingly into a bad area of town in hopes it would change.
Not to start an argument here, but, aren't the police supposed to "serve & protect"? That is what their cars say at least, but who am I to question this statement based on what I read here? I see alot of pointing fingers at the man who wrote the article for mentioning the lack of police support shall we say, but no mention as to why the police are not doing the job they chose to do. Sure judges and such are elected and are probably failing in many instances, but did the officer not choose to take that job and vow to protect and serve? I know and respect many officers, and am not slamming anyone here, just simply pointing out that they chose to do that job, much like the men/women who are elected. The blame is plenty to share for the current situation in my opinion. However, it is only my opinion. I might also add that while some are saying the community should take back their neighborhood, they would be among the first lectured by the police for doing so. People can not just take matters into their own hands without being at risk themselves. That is why we have established laws and might I add police officers to enforce them. Just saying.
The above statements are just my personal opions and not meant to start a war with anyone, thank you. I will leave the arguing and bickering to the professionals.
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 5:54:59 GMT -5
And the good people of Highland Park are turning their neighborhood around because they are getting involved.
Blaming the donut eating cops for the problems is not the answer. I bet this guy has never attended a neighborhood association meeting or any of the numerous CPD seminars on how citizens can help us (Not blame us) clean up their neighborhood.
I don't think the 911 center answers the phone, "911, what is your emergency and are you politcally connected?"
The Highland Park folks have done an admirable job in working with their LE agency and not against them. It has taken them some time, but the neighborhood is now on the upswing instead of barreling down the urban blight slide. Far from "perfect" but they are on the right path.
If this guy is waiting for others to clean up his neighborhood he is in for a long wait.
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Post by brainerdbill on Mar 22, 2007 7:41:24 GMT -5
Crash, according to the letter, the man's e-mail is beevco@juno.com. Why don't you e-mail him, and offer some serious suggestions on how to improve his neighborhood's safety? I'm sure it's frustrating to see thugs wander around looking for trouble, while the police seem to look the other way.
He's merely reporting what he lives and sees each day. I admire him for speaking out. If he is doing something wrong, you're just the person to help him see the light.
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 8:29:20 GMT -5
I wear a lot of hats. Giving individual anti-crime advice regarding his neighborhood is not one of them. If anyone is incapable of finding the resources that are readily available, then they got more than a crime problem.
So do I.
The key word is "seem" and that is the premise I am arguing. Every local LE agency is dangerously under-staffed. We operate on a priority system. We do what we can do with what we have when we can do it.
When they pass the "Anti-Wandering Around Looking For Trouble Law" I'll add that to my list of hats.
Until then I think I better stick to enforcing laws that are on the books.
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Kordax
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Post by Kordax on Mar 22, 2007 8:43:11 GMT -5
Crash, is there a way you might be able to access comparative zip code centric information like the number of people living in sections of town who are convicted felons and those who are currently on probation or parole in both the juvenile & adult systems? Some parts of town are clustered F'd with concentrations of these people while other parts don't hardly have nairn -- nome sain?
When you have a County Mayor & many go-along-to-get along judiciary people who combine the power given them in their elected offices to turn criminals back on to the streets (people the police have arrested numerous times throughout their criminal careers), how in the hell can anyone expect feeble neighborhood watch groups (feeble because by definition their power is miniscule compared with the power of judges & elected officials) to accomplish much if anything given the ever increasing number of criminals free to roam throughout their neighborhoods?
It would be helpful to know the number of criminals already in the criminal justice system walking around neighborhoods practicing their chosen profession that people like the Brainerd letter writer encounter – 37411 – how many criminal scum live there? Same for 37404 – Highland Park. East Lake & East Chattanooga & Alton Park – maybe it would be easier to identify people who aren’t in the system; the numbers would be far more manageable. If scary but accurate information like this is shared with the public, nothing but good can result. Comfortable people living in non-criminal infested sections of town will empathize with those under siege when they see the black & white facts & help bring pressure on the mayor & judges to get tough for a change on criminals. Realtors & educrats would shudder at the prospect of selling houses & recruiting students to skools in areas where the public is far more familiar with the criminal score cards – changes would be demanded. People throughout the region would wake up to the fact that RiverValley, the Downtown Partnership, trust fund preppies & self-dealing insiders are sucking up a vastly disproportionate share of criminal justice resources to protect their tiny (geographically) slice of the city while other sections of town are proportionately in more need of those resources.
Can I get a witness?
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 8:52:23 GMT -5
I am not aware of any database, by zip code, of post-conviction locations of criminals other than the Sex Offender Database.
If the diaspora of the Sex Offender Registry is any measure, I would say that almost every area has it's fair share of the regular offenders. Birds of a feather tend to flock together, though.
I am all for locking up the criminals for a time that really matches their offense.
But then we are gonna have to build more prisons to remove them from society since they have demonstrated they can't behave. And then we are going to have to hire and retain more cops to lock them up. These things cost money and the citizens have repeatedly expressed their unwillingness to do.
Not re-hab (Doesn't work in most cases) but simply a removal of thugs from their neighborhoods for the safety of their neighbors.
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Post by daworm on Mar 22, 2007 9:02:03 GMT -5
I wonder if that is only a short term problem. If we could ever get to the point where we administer swift justice with harsh penalties, I would think after a short while our prison populations would decrease, because the thought of prison time would become a real deterrent to crime.
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 10:32:04 GMT -5
It boils down to a thing called RESPECT. Or lack of it.
There are a very few families these days where respect is taught, either within the family or within the home. The kids are taught to take care of themselves or are left to run with other latch key kids, which only leads to trouble. The lack of respect runs throughout the entire system, from the home to the schools, to the community to the law enforcement system itself. How can we teach our kids or expect our communities to better themselves when things such as pride and respect are only "character traits" taught in the schools on certain months and not actually everyday lifestyles of those teaching?
When I was younger, my parents taught me respect, and to this day I would never curse or disrespect either of my parents, as the raised eyebrow of my mother still gives me reason to cringe and the deepened tone of my father's voice makes me shudder. I was taught to respect my home and my neighbor's and I was taught that the teacher's are just an extension of home and parents. The teachers back then took time to know my name (not just the last one) and spoke to my parents often as they did with everyone else's as well. The police were seen as friendly and there to help and protect, not to bitch and moan about every little thing. (I know, your job sucks, pay is low and hours are long, but, you knew that before you chose your profession). Ultimately police were a symbol that if you disrespected rules, people or your community, they were the "parents" who would respond, but they would also offer guidance and support when asked. I can hardly, if at all remember a time in my childhood that I watched the news to hear stories of officers raping, beating, stealing etc...that just wasn't a 6pm story in my time. That was left to the "bad guys".
We could have an entire argument on the breakdown of respect and pride within the system as well. Many officers just ignore many things that ultimately are seen as just not being worth the paperwork. They arrest, fill out the paperwork and the "system" turns the guy back out as soon as the $$ crosses hands for the guys bail. I know an officer who told me he has arrested the same guy twice in his shift, because before he could get his paperwork out and get back on patrol, the bondsman had already gotten the guy out and back selling drugs. I can see where the frustration lies with the officers, but the thugs now know what they can and can't get away with. There simply is no structure or respect anmore. Bust their ass each and every time you see them on that corner and rack up the charges.
To the officers, parents, teachers, community leaders that actually do care. I commend you and thank you. To those that just wait for it to get better, stop becoming part of the problem. Our system is broken, and it is failing. To blame the right or left hand for not doing it's part is just placing blame somewhere else. I know if I am trying to eat, I need the entire system to work in unison with a goal for that to be accomplished. The communities and the people in positions to make the changes needed, be it at home, in the schools, in the police force or sitting on the bench all need to stop pointing fingers and each take responsibility for their role in what has become "our" problem.
*again, the above is just my opinion. feel free to disagree with it, but I happen to believe it.
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 11:16:32 GMT -5
That is very correct. Like Kordax proffers, it is the same people, over and over and over and over, that are committing these crimes. We catch (And convict) them over and over and over and over and the "system" lets them out with the apparent approval of the voters. (Judges and a legislator are elected to those positions, last time I checked) I find I am now arresting the children of the people I arrested when I was a rookie. "Dude, like, man, you booked my daddy, oncest'd"It is a self-fulfilling cycle that is not working and we (The donut eating cops) have been saying it has not been working for decades. We (The donut eating cops) are doing our part and that is why I responded with vehemence to the letter accusing us of being the root of the problem. I really do not give a rat's ass what their socio-economic status is. I do not give a rat's ass that the education system "failed" them. I do not really give a rat's ass about their self-esteem. I do not give a rat's ass what color their skin may be. I do not give a rat's ass what their zip code is. We can break this cycle by imprisoning these "thugs" for great amounts of time, until they have learned their lesson or are too old to be a thugs, which ever comes last. And it should be hard time. Really hard. I want them coming out like a meek, toothless, beat down dog. I really don't care what they "feel" about it. After a while, the prison population will only be tired, toothless, old beat down "thugs" and of course, the idiots that decide to grow up to be a "thug". It really is pretty simple and it worked for thousands of years. The French actually had a good idea once. Ship the 'thugs" to an island and let them "thug" amongst themselves for a long time. See "Pappillion". But that would be mean (and lacking the compassion we should have for these "thugs") and the ACLU would be raising hell. (We could give the ACLU office space on that island too!)We could make a lot of room in our prisons by releasing the non-violent drug offenders who were sentenced to extremely lengthy mandatory sentences for selling weed in the so-called "War on Drugs" debacle. Until we decide to make it more painful to commit crime than not commit crime.......... Actions should have consequences. Real consequences. My 19 month old has already figured this out. Three strikes and you are out may work in baseball, but it is way too many when it comes to dealing with criminals. I wish I had gotten three attempts to defy the rules when I was a kid. I would have an ass, now.
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 11:19:45 GMT -5
Thanks, you made my point for me much better than I could've.
Respect is a lost art.
I say we bring it back.
Can I get a witness?
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Kordax
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Post by Kordax on Mar 22, 2007 11:19:54 GMT -5
Serendipity, sociological explanations for criminal activity -- "root cause" talk, family breakdown talk, skools then v now, etc., none of that type of analysis gets much done.
Why not take all crimes as seriously as money crimes? When someone robs a bank or a convenience store, people assimilate things differently -- it's all about arresting, trying, convicting & sentencing. It's not about Boys/Girls Clubs programs, church outreaches, non-profit programs, university think tanks or empowering the "let's-make-a-positive-difference" do-gooders -- it's serious business. Wouldn't you rather see more energy & more resources dedicated to no-nonsense crackdowns on all types of criminal activity than more root cause talk?
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Diremaker
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Post by Diremaker on Mar 22, 2007 11:45:00 GMT -5
I can tell you right now, for a FACT, that as far as my recent debacle went, it was the RESPECT I gave the officer and his job that kept my situation from being a lot worse. 90% of the police officers out on the streets are consummate professionals. Yes, they have a "brotherhood" and watch out for each other, but ask any of the LE on here what their take is on dirty cops. Anyway, as with any other situation in life, you get as good as you give. If you show respect for LE, do as they tell you to do, when they tell you to do it, things go a lot smoother. I'm not saying it will get you out of trouble, but I can tell you that the one thing the judge asked every time as I sat in court a couple of weeks ago was the officer's opinion of the defendant. The people that got the lighter fines and impositions were the ones the officers said, "I had no problem with them at all." On the other hand, the ones where the officer was constantly correcting statements, saying things like "No, that's not what happened." and other things, the judge definitely frowned upon. Simple rule, respect given is respect earned and repaid.
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 11:52:21 GMT -5
Kordax, I agree to an extent with what you are saying, but why does everyone want to solve and fix things from the wrong end of the problem? The money and all is fine, but to "fix" something, you generally have to begin where the problem starts, not where it ends up.These things begin at home and wind their way into our systems. The way to stop the problem is not to build a dam, but to stop the source at the beginning of the flow in my opinion. Starty holding the parents and the community leaders to the fire about what is going on with their kids and youths in the area and you will begin to see a change.
Like Tcrash says, these people are elected. You want numbers? Go look and see how many are actually prosecuted vs. how many are plea bargained out. A DA gets popularity and votes per CONVICTIONS, and a judge gets re-elected by what he punishes. What about the crimes that never see the lights in the court room?
TCrash, I agree with you on the "rehabilitaion" not working. Tougher sentencing would be better. Release all the three strikes convicts for selling pot, and put in the child molesters that aren't even given anything more than probation. That is just messed up. A man gets more time in jail for having pot on him than he does for raping his niece or neighbor. Yet, we wonder what the hell is up with our world these days? Go figure.
I wish it was just an assignment we could hand off to one section of our community and say "Fix it", but it is a community problem, and it will take everyone working together and everyone to stop trying to lay the blame on everyone else.
Personally, I believe TCrash has it all wrong when he says he shouldn't email that man with his options. Did you ever stop to think that it might help him to know an officer took a minute to offer some sort of help? Might change his mind about the role of the officers, sort of give a commonality. I mean, TCrash, you are a father aren't you? Just because you live in a safer area, doesn't mean this isn't your problem as well. Please don't mention all the hats you wear anymore, as many, many people on here and off here wear many hats themselves. Just because you wear a hat for several hours a day doesn't mean you stop being human when you take it off. A hat is just a hat, but a moment of your time to offer advice should be an honor.
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 22, 2007 12:39:54 GMT -5
Working from the wrong end of the problem? "Consequences" works very well.
When there are none (consequences), what's the motivation for behaving yourself?
Especially when the rewards for the behavior outshines the consequences.
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Kordax
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Post by Kordax on Mar 22, 2007 12:50:39 GMT -5
Start holding the parents and the community leaders to the fire about what is going on with their kids and youths in the area and you will begin to see a change.
• Non-religious mandatory parenting classes? • Mandatory PTA attendance required? • Weekly mandatory parent/guidance counselor meetings? • Community non-profits' grant monies audited & the results made public? • More transparency in the juvenile court system? • Parents of skool children having their criminal rap sheets made public?
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Post by daworm on Mar 22, 2007 12:53:45 GMT -5
(emphasis mine)
Hold parents responsible for a juvenile's crimes and you'd see quite a bit of good as well. Some problems you have to work on from both ends.
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 13:05:52 GMT -5
Kordax, the current problem with just rehabilitating (joke) the caught offender is that we are doing nothing to rehabilitate the offenders circumstances. You betcha make some parents responsible for the actions of their 10-16 year old children ( +/-) the years there, and you had better believe you will start seeing some changes take place around the community.
Gus, I also respect what you are saying, but "consequences" have to be strick and strictly enforced for them to have any impact. If little Johnny's daddy knows the judge, officer or DA, then what good does it do for the police to bust them. Consequences should be enforced for everyone that breaks the system from the top down and from the parents up. why should the courts be the only ones responsible for fixing problems that are created at home? My consequences started at home, and if they went past there, they were double is all I am saying.
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 13:11:39 GMT -5
Gus, on a side note, to fully understand "consequences" you had to learn to respect what they mean. That for me started at an early age at home. They were those things handed down from my parents. That taught me alot about personal consequences as I grew older. Some children do not have that in their homes these days. As TCrash pointed out, often he is arresting the kids of the parents he arrested years ago. I rest my case.
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 22, 2007 14:06:13 GMT -5
Well, I agree that they should start at home, but does that mean that if they don't, then there shouldn't be any in the judicial system?
Also, just because Johnny's daddy knows the DA and gets off, does that mean that we should simply let Jimmy go because he lives in the projects?
I agree that Johnny should be held to the same standards. But, even if he is not, what is the justification for lowering the standards on everyone else? Fix the broken part, don't break the rest of the parts.
Oh, and I agree that the consequences should be strictly enforced. We had a local judge around here who was soft on crime until he went to NYC, got mugged, got little help from the system, etc. He came back here, and is a local legend now. He retired a few years ago, new, soft judges are in his seat, and the problems are coming right back.
I know that I live in a very, very small town, but I think the same principles can be applied on a larger scale.
Question for the LE in Chattanooga: What is the penalty for a minor consuming alcohol, and is it enforced?
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 15:09:35 GMT -5
Gus, definately not! I do not believe I have implied such a thing. No judicial system? Where did you get that? I do however think it needs to be addressed and re-evaluated, and those in control need to be held accountable for their actions as well. DA's need to be more concerned about prosecuting and getting people before a judge than just the cases they can "win". If this means we need more DA's and judges, then so be it. However, they need to be fair accross the board to all people, not just those they know or whose parents are lucky enough to live in the right address, or who contributes to their campaigns. It needs to be qaccross the board. My point is you can not just sit back ask point fingers as to who's fault this is, when it is everyone's problem. I do NOT believe we need to lower any standards, but raise the bar all the way around. from the parents to the judges to the probation officers. If we see an officer at the donut shop, inquire why? If a judge lets someone off find out why? If a parent lets their kid run the streets being a bully, punish them as well. Set standars for everyone. the parents, the school, the law enforceres, the DA's, the judges. EVERYONE. Why is everyone so worried about it not being their problem?
About the small town situation. Actually that is better, as people know other people's parents, and they know who is being taught right from wrong. In many civilizations the raising and discipline of children is a community responsibility. Amazingly the crime rates are much lower in these places.
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Post by marshall on Mar 22, 2007 15:35:39 GMT -5
"Personally, I believe TCrash has it all wrong when he says he shouldn't email that man with his options"
So do I. That's why I emailed the letter writer Tcrash's first response in this thread. I thought the letter writer might as well experience first-hand the sorry attitude of a donut-eating cop. Then he might better understand the people he is dealing with.
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Post by serendipity on Mar 22, 2007 15:41:05 GMT -5
Not to sound crass, but wasn't that a bit childish as well? Why email that man something to validate his opinion just to prove a point? What that man was asking for was help. How did emailing him that help the situation, or was your intent to harm TCrash? I think there might have been far better things you could have emailed that man instead of wasting his time with a childish action.
*again, just my opinion.
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Post by el Gusano on Mar 22, 2007 15:56:56 GMT -5
The small town comment was because that's often dismissed as, "Oh, that's different". I don't think it is. I think it's a pattern that can be projected on a larger scale.
When the judges, mayors, etc., are your neighbors, they feel the pressure of responsibility. So, applied on a larger scale, they may not be your neighbors, but you can still hold them accountable. (Well, except for the fact that the laws are written to protect their political survival.)
We have had 1 murder in 25 years, and our cops took down an American Most Wanted last year. Even here, we have the hand-wringers saying, "Well, maybe you didn't really have to shoot back at him", but mostly, people are very supportive of the cops and think they showed too much restraint.
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Post by marshall on Mar 22, 2007 16:33:54 GMT -5
"How did emailing him that help the situation, or was your intent to harm TCrash?"
No. Tcrash does that by himself just fine. And if you read tcrash's post, most of it was addressed to the letter writer anyway, so he might as well read the kind officer's words of wisdom. If Tcrash doesn't want his rantings distributed to his targets, he can think twice before he posts them.
I actually did email the guy a few other thoughts and ideas. I thought it was important to send him Tcrash's response...because obviously if he's only counting on certain police officers for help, he will likely be disappointed.
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 16:57:30 GMT -5
Whatever, marshall. I haven't heard from him either. I tend to worry about things I can control and blow off things I cannot. Your opinion of me, I cannot control, so fuck it. Feel better you tried to set a cop out?
Thought so.
He knows his options. Sit back and wait for others to solve his problems or solve his problems himself. A concept marshall has trouble with.
No gray area there. Black or white. Hot or cold.
Or in this case, tepid.
I hate luke-fuckin'-warm.
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Post by tcrashfx on Mar 22, 2007 17:02:48 GMT -5
And that is the PROBLEM. A crime victim really does not care about the sociological background of a predator. Nor where he/she was edumacated.
There are more people who rose above their situation to make something of themselves than there are people who blame their situation on everybody else.
Lock them up and throw away the key, works for me.
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