Climate report: Poor will suffer most

[CMF Newsman]

BRUSSELS, Belgium - The world faces increased hunger and water shortages in the poorest countries, massive floods and avalanches in Asia, and species extinction unless nations adapt to climate change and halt its progress, according to a report approved Friday by an international conference on global warming.

Agreement came after an all-night session during which key sections were deleted from the draft and scientists angrily confronted government negotiators who they feared were watering down their findings.

"It has been a complex exercise," said Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

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[Deleted]

Dr. Paul Ehrlick (sp?) blew it when he predicted massive collapse by 1975 at the latest in his book, "Population Bomb" - but he made the point that sooner or later with the increases of population the world has seen, something's gotta give. Maybe we're on the leading edge of that collapse right now.

I don't envy my kids the world they're inheriting.

[el Gusano]

That's the hardest thing to convey to people up here. The Russians all have big families, and there are many non-Russian families that move here because it's easier to raise a big family by homesteading.

As much empty space as there is here (and I like empty space), they cannot see the big picture.

What's the big picture?

If the world's population keeps growing at the rate that it is now (which is much lower than it has been in a long, long, time), there will be one person for every two square feet of land on the planet in about 365 years. That includes land that is under ice, mountain tops, desert, everything.

[Copperhead]

The thing i'm thinkin', guys, is pandemic. We're way overdue for one. If it's not the avian flu or even a more virulent strain of what we've been seeing, there's always community-acquired MRSA to complicate the matter. This will bring the world's population down considerably. Sadly, the poor will also suffer most in the scenario.

Gee, what a cheerful ray of sunshine am I!

[daworm]

The poor always suffer the most. They are the least successful, they die first, thus improving the breed. Heil...

Oh, wait... Um... Err...

;D

[legaltender]

Dealing with migration because of climate change is the single greatest danger governments will have to face. At some point, it won't matter whether it's warmer because of man or nature.

Water is what it's all about. Syria and Turkey could go to war over attempts to dam the Euphrates. Irrigation is life.

[bushcheney08]

The poor should just stop being poor. They should learn from our President. I'm sure that when he was a young man, he looked around and thought, "I'm going to work very hard and earn a lot of money so that I can have a better life."

DISCLAIMER!!! ATTENTION!!! WARNING!!!

THE ABOVE POST EMPLOYS SARCASM. IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE LITERAL. OBVIOUSLY, THE PRESIDENT (LIKE THE MOST PEOPLE) WAS BORN INTO HIS SOCIAL CLASS. BECAUSE OF THIS, I THINK IT IS A SHAME THAT POOR PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SUFFER. WHILE IT IS POSSIBLE TO PULL YOURSELF OUT OF POVERTY AND CLIMB TO A NEW SOCIAL CLASS, IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THAN WILL SMITH AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPYNESS WOULD MAKE YOU THINK. IF THE WORLD'S POOR SUFFER THE MOST AS A RESULT OF GLOBAL WARMING, I WILL THINK IT IS A SHAME SINCE MOST POOR INDIVIDUALS INHERIT THEIR STATUS AND THE OBSTICLES THAT COME WITH IT.

[el Gusano]

I bet you think that blacks need all that help too because it's just too hard, don't you?

[legaltender]

Worldwide precipitation is shifting away from the equator and toward the poles.

(Oh, Canada!)

The world's wealth is also disproportionately distant from the equator. More survived on the upper decks of the Titanic than the cheaper ones.

[Felix]

BC08: I know from other posts you have made elsewhere that you are capable of pertinent, serious commentary.

Your efforts at humor have fallen flat rather often. Please try to post relevantly and with some restraint. Humor can season commentary, but should not overwhelm it.

[bushcheney08]

elgusano said:

I bet you think that blacks need all that help too because it's just too hard, don't you?

Are you kidding? An entire race of people was enslaved, then released, but still treated as sub-humans until only a few decades ago.

But the US Government heroically ended racism and descrimination. And by doing so, all the lasting economic and social effects of slavery and segregation were immediately erased.

It's purely a coincidense that blacks are disproporationately poor and/or in jails. It has nothing to do with history. Black people should all just get over it and start their own Fortune 500 corporations.

[bushcheney08]

marvell said:

Humor can season commentary, but should not overwhelm it.

Eh, different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I've always found that comedy kind of boring.

[el Gusano]

So, Walter Williams (the esteemed economist, not the judge) and Thomas Sowell and all those black people simply got lucky?

It's a good thing they didn't have to work hard or they would have never made it without us white folks giving everything to them.

[el Gusano]

It's purely a coincidense that blacks are disproporationately poor and/or in jails.

Well, if you look at "black society" and ignore the rampant drug use, the disproportionate lack of morals, all the baby daddys, gangs, black on black crime, etc., then it's easy to blame whitey for all their problems.

Here's a question for you: There's a growing problem in the US with white kids getting caught up in the meth problem and ending up poor and in prison and all these problems that are rampant in black society (but blamed on whitey): Is it because the ancestors of these white kids were enslaved and treated as sub-humans until only a few decades ago?

Or is it, perhaps, a problem with the individuals who choose to live like that?

[bushcheney08]

I guess it's just a really hard concept for you to grasp. Honestly, I doubt any ammount of explaining would help you see it the way I do. That's just the way it goes, I guess.

Try and think of it this way. Imagine you have a daughter. Now imagine she was raped over and over again throughout her childhood. You can imagine how her adult life might be slightly screwed up as a result.

And why, you ask? The rapist's penis is no longer in her vagina, right? The raping is over, isn't it?

Yeah, I guess. But sometimes very serious, vary damaging acts can have a lasting effect. Just as your hypothetical daughter could suffer the trauma of her rape for a lifetime, even with proper care and treatment, so too could an entire race of people feel the effects of slavery, segregation and racism, even a few decades after their ruling government decides to legally recognize them as human beings.

I see "rampant drug use, disproportionate lack of morals, all the baby daddys, gangs black on black crime, etc..." to be a product of poverty, not dark skin color. Unless you believe that non-white DNA is somehow inferior to white DNA, then I guess you'd have to agree.

Because it's possible for me to imagine how slavery and segregation could effect black Americans even a years after the courts grant them equality, I can see how their might be a deeper and more systematic explanation for problems in black America than just "individuals choosing to live like that."

It's as simple as this. I have poor friends, and I have rich friends. Most of the poor friends I have came from poor families. Most of the rich friends I have come from rich families. That doesn't proclude the possibility that some poor people can become rich, or that some rich people can become poor. So pointing to Walter Williams or Barak Obama as evidence that no black person should achieve any less is as silly as saying the white guy working at the Hardees just lacked the motivation to become Bill Gates.

[el Gusano]

bushcheney08 said:

Try and think of it this way. Imagine you have a daughter. Now imagine she was raped over and over again throughout her childhood. You can imagine how her adult life might be slightly screwed up as a result.

And why, you ask? The rapist's penis is no longer in her vagina, right? The raping is over, isn't it?

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for paying reparations to all former US slaves (not the ones who are currently living in slavery in Africa, as those are not our concern financially), and I could easily be convinced that we need to pay it to the children of those slaves.

However, my ancestors were treated very badly, went through famine and pestilence, and even slavery as some would define it. What's wrong with me? Why am I not a criminal thug?

bushcheney08 said:

I see "rampant drug use, disproportionate lack of morals, all the baby daddys, gangs black on black crime, etc..." to be a product of poverty, not dark skin color. Unless you believe that non-white DNA is somehow inferior to white DNA, then I guess you'd have to agree.

Why would I have to agree with fallacious logic? I know plenty of poor people who don't use drugs, don't drink, don't commit crime, don't have bastard children, etc.

I know plenty of rich people who do.

Economics has nothing to do with it any more than skin color has anything to do with it.

Attitude has everything to do with it.

Know what happens when a kid misbehaves continually, and you tell him, "That's OK. It's all good. There is no right or wrong, and besides, it's not your fault!"? That bad behavior is going to snowball.

The same goes for "black society". If you go beyond not discriminating against someone for having bastard children with multiple fathers and go so far as to praising them for it, guess what? It's going to happen more.

You excuse the drug usage, remove any semblance of right or wrong from society, tell them that they can't help it anyway, guess what? It's going to snowball!

Every black person with whom I associate voluntarily is quite offended at the notion that is espoused by the liberals that individual blacks cannot succeed without Big Brother's help by hindering whitey. All blacks should be offended.

Anyone, white, black, blue, or any other color of the rainbow, who applies themselves and studies hard and works hard will be successful, with few exceptions.

Everyone who is coddled, bad behavior excused, and every whim provided for (see the iPod fiasco in MI), will be a failure, with few exceptions.

And people like you expect me to suffer for these sloths.

Those who truly cannot provide for themselves deserve handouts; all others need to be forced to live by the "no work-no eat" policy of life, and get the criminals out of society.

bushcheney08 said:

So pointing to Walter Williams or Barak Obama as evidence that no black person should achieve any less is as silly as saying the white guy working at the Hardees just lacked the motivation to become Bill Gates.

I excluded Obama specifically because I figured he wasn't black enough for you. He's not black enough for most liberals and other race-baiters. Neither is Tiger Woods. Oh, and Bill Cosby doesn't represent "real blacks".

But, in almost every case, the guy at Hardees can do better.

And everyone who comes up with an idea that everyone wants to pay him for will become the next Bill Gates. (You think Bill Gates wasn't motivated? That's bizarre.)

Everyone who wants to work can work. But many don't want to work because it's easier to take a handout and blame everyone else and rob and steal and the handouts are often more than you would get from working anyway.

No matter what, with few exceptions, it's an individual's choice to work hard or simply stay in the gutter.

Our great nation provides for equal opportunity; not equal outcome.

[bushcheney08]

Well, I'm glad to know you've got the issue of racism all figured out.

I never said I had all the answers. You seem to act like you do. I doubt there's any way I could ever convince you that you might not be the singular, all-knowing person on this topic.

Yes, slavery is over. Yes, a few decades ago, blacks were recognized as humans. Considering the scope of human history, I simply don't think that enough time has gone by for that population to be free off all the lingering effects.

But I never said anythingg about handouts. I never said anything about "blacks not succeeding without Big Brother's help by hindering whitey." You decided to put those words in my mouth so that you could respond with that carefully crafted arguement you've put together over your years on internet message forums.

I said that, in my opinion, the effects of slavery and segregation can still be felt today. Here's what I'm basing it on... bosses I know that refuse to hire black people. Landlords I've met who do the same thing. The fact that poverty continues to plauge the population of people that were oppressed and mistreated for so long. Same for the criminal justice system.

Just acknowledging that those issues exist doesn't mean that you're a bad, evil white person. It doesn't mean that you're personally to blame for slavery, or the descrimination that some people still face in this country. You don't need to get defensive and hysterical.

Are entitlements and Affirmative Action the best way to address these issues? Honestly, I don't know. I think you can make strong cases for and against. As a white person, I'm not sure I'm the best qualified to judge some of those issues. I'd be more interested to hear what black America would say about it if there was some way to have them vote. It's not feasible or democractic, but I would find it interesting. Something maybe slightly more conclusive and informed than Gus's informal "I asked a black guy I know" survey.

I do think that the best way to break the cycles of poverty that black America faces is through education. I think it's very important to get black kids to seriously consider college as a possiblity when they're young. But it's tough when nobody in your family went to college. It was tough on my white friends in that same position.

And you're right Gus. Most peole who work hard and apply themselves will succeeed. But not everybody's perfect. Some people make mistakes. When you're already at a huge cultural and econimic disadvantage, it can be harder and harder to overcome those problems. For example, when a young George W. Bush does a bunch of blow, gets hammered and gets a D.U.I., it's very easy for him to continue on to Yale, and ultimately the Presidency. My poorer friends in those kinds of situations never got the chance. Obviously, that's an extreme example, but it signifies the basic prinicpal. Money is power. People with money have power. People without money don't.

Maybe the tough-love, with-us-or-against-us, nutswinging macho neo-con thing really stokes your engines. If so, more power to you. I just don't think it's really helping things. We can all seem to recognize that there are serious problems with race and poverty in this country. I don't think moralizing and bumper sticker solutions are fostering a particularly productive debate.

[daworm]

I said that, in my opinion, the effects of slavery and segregation can still be felt today.

Can still be felt? Sure, I can go with that. But they can no longer be used as an excuse.

Here's what I'm basing it on... bosses I know that refuse to hire black people. Landlords I've met who do the same thing.

Black people, or thugs and lowlifes? Do they refuse to hire or house white meth heads, too?

And is your "I asked the bosses and landlords I know" any better authority than Gus' "I asked the black people I know"?

[bushcheney08]

Obviously they'd reject meth head thug whites too. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about respectable, educated, professional human beings who also happen to have dark skin.

Major companies HR departments still have unofficial "no black unless it's Affirmative Action" policies. Not just the South either. I used to work in staffing for some major financial services companies in New York City.

And it's not "thugs" or "lowlifes" that landlords refuse to rent to. Most recently, it was a single black mother. College educated, full time job. The landlord refused to see her because he could tell by her voice that she was "colored." It had nothing to do with her status as a single mother, as he's rented to others.

You might not think that that descrimination can be used as an "excuse" for something, whatever that means. But these problems are very real. Ignoring them doesn't make it better. It makes people on both sides of the divide angrier and more militant.

As a society, our goal should be solving these problems, not winning an internet forum debate. While some people might feel a perverse vindication of their middle class values by blaming blacks for their problems, I just don't see it solving any of our long-term problems as a culture.

[daworm]

You might not think that that descrimination can be used as an "excuse" for something, whatever that means. But these problems are very real. Ignoring them doesn't make it better. It makes people on both sides of the divide angrier and more militant.

If you saw these things with your own eyes, and did nothing, then you are as much of the problem as anyone. In case you haven't noticed, such discrimination is illegal in this country.

[bushcheney08]

That's an interesting question.

As a part-time junior employee at a major corporation who staffs for an even more major corproation, do I have the ability to march into the SVP of HR for JP Morgan Chase's office and demand that they change their unofficial, off-the-book policies? Realistically, no. I don't even know where this SVP works.

As for the landlords, I have a friend who tries to rent units as a favor the the landlord who's building he lives in. When he laments how racist the guy is, I guess I could track that guy down and raise some hell.

But that doesn't SOLVE anything. The issues of racism and descrimination are far more deeper than that. I know it's comforting to be able to assign simple blame. It restores order and makes us all feel warm and fuzzy.

But the truth is, had I somehow managed to track down the SVP of HR for Chase and scolded him, the problem or racism in our country wouldn't be affected one bit.

But you're right -- I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone. We all are. I totally agree with that. Everyone is a racist in some way. The problems with race relations run so deeply in this country that nobody is above it.

Sadly, I think the only answer is time. Once the years kill off society's most stubborn racists, the culture will continue to shift more towards tolerance and acceptance.

[daworm]

Once the years kill off society's most stubborn racists, the culture will continue to shift more towards tolerance and acceptance.

Sort of like the period between the 1940's and the end of the 1950's when, while still not good and in places still horrible, relations between blacks and whites were improving at a steady pace.

Now, with what you describe on one side, and with affirmative action, preferential college admissions, and race baiters of all colors spewing hateful rhetoric for their own aggrandizement (for every David Duke there is an Al Sharpton to match) on the other, there is so much resentment on both sides that even time may not help much, or at the least it will take much longer than it should.

The civil rights movement was a great idea taken entirely too far. Jim Crowe laws, enforced segregation, and "separate but equal" policies should have been outlawed and stiff penalties for violations, with active efforts to bring cases to trial should have been the limit. Affirmative action, race based quotas, and bussing took things too far, and we, black and white, are still paying for those mistakes to this day.

[bushcheney08]

People like Al Sharpton serve a purpose, I think. If it weren't for radical progressives forcing the nation to confront injustices, then they're allowed to continue, unabated. People considered MLK Jr to be the same way once. And before anyone tries to misrepresent that sentiment by parahprasing it as "This guy thinks MLK and Sharpton are equals," then please let me elaborate... That is NOT what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that people like MLK and Sharpton (or even Ellen Degeneres and Rob Halford for that matter) force these issues to be confronted just by the nature of their existence. Sometimes they make mistakes. They're human, and they're flawed... like all leaders. But I admire the fact that they've dedciated their lives to a cause that, even if I disapprove of some specific actions or words, is still something I can support... equality.

David Duke or Hitler's goals aren't goals I personally share, and therefore, I could never really support them. Someone with nobel goals, even if they make occasionally misguided acts. is much better than someone with destructive, harmful goals (regardless of how successful they are at meeting them). That's just my view on it though.

As for whether or not Affirmative Action "worked," I really don't think any of us can say one way or the other. It's purely speculation, and to pretend you have some conclusive empirical evidence to support your claim is just wishful thinking. There are good points to be made on both sides.

As I mentioned in my experience with staffing, lots of companies FLAT OUT REFUSE to consider hiring blacks unless it's part of AA. You could make a case that if it weren't for AA, then they'd be more likely to hire blacks for positions that weren't part of a quota. Maybe, but that hinges on an understanding of the individuals doing the hiring and setting these policies. Neither of us are qualified to say what those people would have done differently if laws had been changed twenty years ago. Sorry, it's just speculation.

But if the problem is that many of the empowered, wealthy people who control the business and economy are refusing to even CONSIDER a black person for a job or an apartment, then why would you just assume they'd all suddenly change their opinions at once?

They can change gradually over generations, as they learn that these narrow-minded views of black America they cling to are based on stereo-types reinforced by TV, movies, entertainment, and their own provincial views based on the limited sampling of "Black People" that they run into in their towns. If I was a person over average intelligence who only saw blacks on COPS and at EastGate, it would be very easy to make those kinds of assumptions too. Luckily, I've had the opportunity to live in NYC and Los Angeles, where I'm confronted with a much broader, varied view of Black America than I had growing up in Hixson, Tennessee. When people say things like "blacks are thugs," I know that's not true. I just know it. I've lived with black people. Worked for them.

At the same time, I can see how someone growing up without the opportunity to see the reality of a black middle class wouldn't share my views. It's a shame.

The key really is education. When the poor and uneducated are able to empower themselves through college, that black middle class will grow. And as it does, hopefully the problems faced by black America will start to fade. But it's a long process.

I think it's really remarkable that black America has gone so far consdiering how huge a disadvantage they started off with in this country. Last time I was in Chattanooga, I spent an afternoon at Bessie Smith Hall. The story of blacks in America (and especially blacks in the South) IS the story of America. There's a lot of remarkable black history in our area, but I don't think the average citizen (black citizen too) is really aware of it. If they were, I think there'd be much more pride in the idea of being black in this country. Exploring the past could do a lot to build pride and self-worth in the community.

Politics aside, I think Barack Obama's presidency could do a lot of good to inspire black kids across this country. When I was a kid, I didn't know anyone who had a career in the arts. Because of that, it was hard for me to see that as a realisitic possibility for my future. I could imagine if I grew up black... I'd probably feel that way about business, finance and government too. Being able to look at Barack Obama and think -- "This can be done! This can be a reality!" --- could do a lot to inspire black kids everywhere in this country.

[daworm]

So, are you assuming I've never had any association with blacks because I've never lived in NYC or Los Angeles? That I've never had a black friend, a black coworker, or a black neighbor. Mighty big assumption.

I never once said all blacks are thugs. But there are blacks that are thugs. And there are people who refuse to hire or house them, but that doesn't mean they won't hire or house all black people.

And you defend Sharpton... wow. Sharpton has no lofty goals other than lofting Sharpton. Rememeber, a lot of people thought David Duke was working for the betterment of the nation as well. They thought he had "Noble Goals", too.

... lots of companies FLAT OUT REFUSE to consider hiring blacks unless it's part of AA.

Then name names and get the word out. Provide some documentation, even if just your own eyewitness account. Otherwise, I'll take your knowledge of the matter the same way I'll take your knowledge of my interactions with blacks in this town (of which most have been quite positive, which you apparently didn't know).

Being able to look at Barack Obama and think -- "This can be done! This can be a reality!" --- could do a lot to inspire black kids everywhere in this country.

Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Thomas Sowell, and Walter Williams do nothing for black kids now. One more politician, even if he does get to be president, won't change that. They're* too busy idolizing Pacman Jones and Snoop Dogg (even Michael Jordan's a "who's that" nowadays) and T.O..

* And before you read "They" as "All black kids" I'll disabuse you of that notion right now. "They" is intended to represent the thug youth that are either the problem, or a symptom of the problem, not the quiet and unheard from majority of black families that are truly trying to get ahead in this world.

[bushcheney08]

How's a black kid being into Snoop any different than me being into Guns N' Roses when I was their age? The problem isn't that Snoop exists. The problem is that there isn't a balance of those images.

And no, I don't think Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams do a whole lot to inspire the entire nation. But I might not know as much about who black kdis are into compared to you. Clearly, you've got your finger on the pulse.

[el Gusano]

Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Bill Cosby, etc. are generally dismissed by "black leaders" because they don't really represent what black people are capable of since the man is trying to hold him down. The only reason they succeeded is because they were turncoats who did things the white mans' way.

Then, they explain how we owe it all to them on a silver platter.

Oh, and I can trump your NYC deal. I lived in DC for a while and managed a restaurant. I can tell you one thing is that there is a big difference between blacks from Africa who come here to work and the majority of US blacks that I dealt with. My two best friends were black, and one of them was not considered "black enough" by a few prominent black leaders because he was educated (he taught at U of M for a while, then went to a satellite campus of George Mason) and would not play the race card when every little thing didn't go his way.

The other one was from Guinea. We were driving around Savannah one day (he came down there to work with me when the company transferred me) and he wanted to know why all the protesters were at the mall. Wanna know why they were there? They were demanding that management give a discount on the rent rate to blacks so they could get a "more fair" representation in the mall. Wanna know what he, a black, successful man due to his own actions, thought about it?

His cousin came here and was befuddled by things the same way. It was the greatest opportunity they had ever been offered. Work hard and be successful.

I guess they could have made excuses instead.

As long as American blacks make excuses and idolize thugs and live the thug image, they will be poor. It may be through their parents' actions that they start in the position they are in, but it's their actions that determine how they end up. With a few exceptions.

And no, I did not "ask a few blacks". I was basing my anecdotal evidence on the blacks that I associate with and care about. I would not associate freely with the dregs of society on that level. I would do my best to elevate the dregs up to a decent, human level.

Bad behavior will end in bad results.

People like you excuse it and blame everyone else.

Whose fault is it that an individual uses drugs? In most cases, it's the drug user's. (Although, exceptions are becoming common here in the native community. They busted a couple of Eskimo drug dealers in Barrow who would literally hold people down, get them high and get them hooked. But, that's still the exception, and if you find a person this happened to, then I will agree with you that it's someone else's fault.)

Whose fault is it that an individual chooses not to work because that entry level job at McD's is beneath him so he is "forced" to enter a life of crime?

As an aside, one thing that I liked about living in DC and Savannah is that they are majority black and when they passed noise ordinances against those thumping stereos, the blacks couldn't yell "racism!" (Although a few yelled, "Uncle Tom!")