Black Subculture: Nasty Language OK?

[Kordax]

Imus is being raked over the coals.

Black rappers are getting a free pass.

Same words, separate, unequal usage standards applied.

Is this OK? If it is OK, why not revert back to separate & unequal public accommodation standards, separate but unequal employment standards, separate but unequal housing standards? Do we really need to sit still while pseudo intellectuals justify one standard of speech for the Black sub culture & another for Whites?

[legaltender]

Imus is being raked over the coals.

Black rappers are getting a free pass.

Not from what I've been hearing and reading.

Neil Boortz, Glenn ("Hillary's a bitch") Beck and Michael Savage are getting a free pass.

Imus is a fall guy for the public slowly getting fed up with decades of pushing-the-envelope insults, the staple of talk radio. We still love it, of course. This five-cycle news event is way beyond disproportionate.

As for the race angle, a few blacks are recoiling against charlatans manufacturing outrage for their own fame - in the name of civility:

Thank you, Don Imus. You’ve given us (black people) an excuse to avoid our real problem.

You’ve given Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson another opportunity to pretend that the old fight, which is now the safe and lucrative fight, is still the most important fight in our push for true economic and social equality.

You’ve given Vivian Stringer and Rutgers the chance to hold a nationally televised recruiting celebration expertly disguised as a news conference to respond to your poor attempt at humor.

Thank you, Don Imus. You extended Black History Month to April, and we can once again wallow in victimhood, protest like it’s 1965 and delude ourselves into believing that fixing your hatred is more necessary than eradicating our self-hatred.

The bigots win again.

www.kansascity.com/182/story/66339.html

[Felix]

This morning on MSNBC, a straight news program hosted by David Gregory was in place, filling the Imus vacuum.

David Gregory interviewed Jesse Jackson and pressed him pretty hard on the vigor and intensity of the demands by Jackson, Sharpton and others for maximum punishment of Imus.

Jackson was trying to broaden the issue, to say that all "vile" speech by everyone, including Imus, should be banished from all public discourse. Gregory kept bringing the topic back to the overkill on Imus's case, asking why he should not be given a chance to apologize and change, as others have been. Gregory also brought up the famous "hymietown" remark by Jackson himself a number of years ago, and pointed out that Jackson retained his position and influence then, so why not extend the same chance to Imus.

Jackson didn't like the comparison.

[tncoaster37]

It's a double standard while Jackson and Sharpton shakedown the businesses for thier foundations. The businesses have to go along with it since they don't want to be called racist by the two biggest race baiting thugs of all time.

[LimitedRecourse]

I'm constantly amazed at how many people still consider Jackson & Sharpton credible. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black....or something like that.

[Felix]

It's interesting that two stories involving race and indignation have absorbed a lot of attention the past few days. Imus getting fired---twice---made more headlines and commentary than the other story, the exoneration of the three Duke lacrosse players.

The contrasts and parallels are interesting. Looking for some evidence of Jackson apologizing for trashing the lacrosse players from the get-go (haven't found any yet) I came across a very good column tying the cases together:

Duke injustice fails to provoke anger Imus did
By Bernie Miklasz
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
04/12/2007

When a comedian speaks in humorous generalities
about the differences between races, that's considerably
different from Imus spontaneously slurring a specific group of
people such as the Rutgers players, who have names, faces,
identities and families.

The anger directed at Imus is on target. Sure, the piling on
from discredited figures such as Al Sharpton and Jesse
Jackson is absurd, but that doesn't excuse what Imus did.

We're quick to leap and uphold the honor of the Rutgers
women by beating up on Imus. But I'm just wondering:
Where is the outrage over the blatant injustice endured
by three members of Duke's men's lacrosse team?

[Babs]

I listened to Glenn Beck tonight. (Kordax, pick your jaw off the floor!)He pointed out that the rap songs have many references to "ho" and "n.......r". He was asking who will be censored next. Will we all start finger pointing?

[Dreamwebber]

One thing I have noticed in our American culture as of late since we have lived in a culture of "political correctness" is now we have gone so overboard to be correct that whites now think they can speak for how black people should feel...to me that is racist.

No one has a right to think they can speak for a whole culture. We are all individuals with different life experiences.

I personally don't see how anyone could listen to music that degrades women or uses the "N" word...I don't see how anyone could....it tells me more about their character than the color of their skin.

[tcrashfx]

It tells me more about their character than the color of their skin.

Well said.

I think I have I heard that before?

[Felix]

Time out for a laugh out of this whole business. Proof there is nothing that cannot be inspiration for an entrepreneur:

[url=http://www.cafepress.com/buy/tee+shirts/-/pv_design_prod/pg_1/p_storeid.123393329/pNo_123393329/id_18734462/opt_/fpt_/c_360/
]'Nappy Ho' shirt[/url]

God Bless Capitalism.

[daworm]

No one has a right to think they can speak for a whole culture.

But... isn't assuming that blacks have a different culture than white also racist? Aren't we all Americans?

[tncoaster37]

very true on that worm

[Kordax]

But... isn't assuming that blacks have a different culture than white also racist? Aren't we all Americans?

Only if you're an a-historical, totally insensitive, non-diversity believing, non-multi-cultural accepting, close-minded, back-woods mega-rube.

Ebonics? You MUST accept sub-cultural norms.

Predisposition toward criminal activity? You MUST accept the popular notion that slavery caused it.

Illegitimacy? Dittos above.

Educational excellence? Only if a race traitor acts White.

Get your head in the game, Worm -- double-secret double standards are the norm -- learn to embrace whatever diversity might be defined as at the moment....

[Dreamwebber]

Da Worm let me rephrase that..I should have said no one has a right to think they can speak for a whole race. I don't know why I wrote "culture" instead of "race"

You are right. Culture and race are not the same thing. It would be racist to think that blacks have a different culture than whites if both share the same life experience.

[daworm]

To carry that one step further, though... What exactly is a "race" and why is it important? A "race" isn't a species, as black, white, red, brown and yellow can all interbreed. Is it simply a set of genes that happen to breed true when bred like to like? If so, what has that to do with modes of thought, culture, or morality?

The sooner people, no matter the color of skin, figure out the fact that we are each and every one human beings, and that calling someone a "honky" or a "successful and attractive African-American" as a way to make them feel less than human makes about as much sense as saying "collie" or "schnauzer" makes a dog any less a dog. They are sounds to which we assign meaning, they do not have meaning unto themselves. These aren't magic words of power that will rain doom upon anyone that utters them. We are offended by such words because we choose to be. As soon as we choose not to be offended, these words lose any ability to hurt. Banning the words does nothing to ban the underlying sentiment behind them. Banning the words is like thinking applying a band aid to a gunshot wound will help, simply because it covers up the hole. You can ban the words, but the underlying hatred, fear and mistrust will still exist, only now under pressure and liable to explode. Much better to take away the only power these words have by refusing to be hurt by them.

[Dreamwebber]

From a purely scientific approach through time and travel race has become less important. In other words back in the day of the "beginning of the world" you had cultures....for ex. The Egyptians, the Chinese, Indians (those from India) etc. People isolated themselves into tribes in which you looked very similar and you shared the same culture, morals, religion, lifestyle etc. In India and Africa for ex you had the caste system which originated from their religious beliefs which basically gave rules as to whom in your society was unclean and who was the best of the best. In early Egyptian culture they basically broke race into 4 groups the Syrians, Nubians, Libyans and Egyptians because that’s all they knew. You could study these groups as a race at that time because no one left their little group...even though everyone was a human their culture, religion, nutrition, etc would have shown similar traits among people of these different cultures.

In today's society we don't live in isolated cultures. Where only one race of people exist. To some degree yes, but, People for ex in China can travel to the United States and marry someone whose family is originally from Norway and have a baby. In this case you can't say this child is "white" you can't say this child is "Asian" because this child has a mixture of both "races" but, in a purely scientific perspective the child will carry recessive genes from both races.
Culturally, this child will grow up living in a world of different cultures not only from its parents but, it is now living in the "American culture"

Yes, we are all humans but, our racial make-up can explain things in regards to health…for example sickle cell anemia is more common in blacks. But, it’s not because their skin is black. If you are a white person whose ancestors lived in parts of Africa or in other countries where malaria was common there is a chance you could carry the gene too.

From a completely scientific and historical perspective studying race and culture can be very educational but, again I hope as time passes we will not feel the need to keep trying to segregate ourselves by race.

[Deleted]

> we don't live in isolated cultures.

Sorry, Dreamy, but I have to disagree. In my mind, to say that white people and black people have the same culture is akin to saying that the average human being has one breast and one testicle. It just doesn't happen that way. There are differences.

And of course, it's not just black and white. How about Hispanics, Koreans, Japanese, Indians (both continents), and so on. Maybe you're thinking that all those cultures and more combine to one gigantic culture, but I feel we do indeed live in "isolated" cultures that just happen to have to deal with each other.

I don't have the proper education to be able to define race and culture accurately, so I just have to go with my feelings which are that race is genetic and culture is learned behavior. Will those definitions do for this discussion?



and then there are all those cultures in my refrigerator.

[Dreamwebber]

I do agree people can make the choice to be isolated in ones culture but, that is a completely different issue.

[daworm]

One point I was trying to make is that your biology has nothing to do with your ideology. You culture is not defined by your skin color or the shape of your eyes.

[legaltender]

daworm said:

You culture is not defined by your skin color or the shape of your eyes.

'Yo culture being a different matter.

In present-day America, this is how slang evolves:

1. A slang term originates in black culture.

2. Whites catch on and start using it humorously. Not making fun of black people, but consciously appropriating black people's 'coolness.'

3. The slang becomes the norm. See 'dissed.'

Don Imus got caught in step 2 by a perfect storm of race mongers.

He's old school. Crap, another appropriated phrase.

[el Gusano]

Ebonics actually originated among the uneducated in England. Walter Williams did a piece on this a few years back.

[legaltender]

Ebonics actually originated among the uneducated in England.

Actually, dawg, "ebonics" was the mis-invention of a black social psychologist in the mid-70's, Dr. Robert Williams. British slang ("shag," "bollocks," "tart" etc.) isn't descendant from UK black culture, it's Anglo-Saxon, cockneyed or Shakespearean. Our urban dictionary is largely black. Nothing black in Britain is cool.

White kids here toss around, "Yo G, you frontin me?" a lot more than, "Excuse me, my peer, are you attempting to influence me to engage in a violent action with you?"

[el Gusano]

Then, you're much smarter than Walter Williams.

[legaltender]

Give us the Walter Williams citation and we'll check it out.

[radiodrama]

Lets see Snoop Dog said there is a difference between him using the word ho, over how Imus used it. Of course Imus's producer said that the game was "jigaboos versus the wannabes", but no one said anything because well that was quoted from Spike Lee's move School Daze.. which of course no one could say anything about Spike in that instance.. Somewhere Howard Stern must be laughing, cause well who'da thunk it would have been Imus first..

[snarkalicious]

If Imus had called the Lady Vols "white trash rednecks"...would anyone have gotten upset?

Shannon

[Deleted]

About nasty language being broadcast - I sure don't like the language used on the Dr. Phil show. For that matter, I don't like the show at all, but someone has it on when I'm in the room. I do find the language particularly offensive on television.

[Christopher]

kordax said:

Imus is being raked over the coals.

Black rappers are getting a free pass.

Exactly! For an example here is a rap song that is currently number 2 on the CHR/RHY chart. You don't see MIMS (the "artist") getting thrown off the radio do you?

This is why I'm hot
Catch me on the block
Every other day
Another bitch another drop
16 bars, 24 pop
44 songs, nigga gimme what you got
I'm in there driving cars
Push 'em off the lot
I'm into shutting stores down so i can shop
If you need a bird I can get it chopped
Tell me what you need you know i get 'em by the flock
I call ma homie black meet on the ave
I hit Wash Heights with the money in the bag
We into big spinners
See my pimping never dragged
Find me wit different women that you niggas never had
For those who say they know me know I'm focused on ma cream
player you come between you'd better focus on the beam
I keep it so mean the way you see me lean
And when say I'm hot my nigga dis is what I mean

'Nigga' is used six times in the song. If "some people" had said it just once Al Sharpton would be on the next flight there to start up a protest and demand that they be fired. Double standard? Nah!