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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 9, 2009 18:48:17 GMT -5
I think education and personal responsibility is what lead to the decreased rate. It was mostly the huge tax on cigarettes and Big Tobacco no longer being able to defend liability claims in court after jurors stopped buying the "personal responsibility" defense. Even with the huge tax on tobacco I saw a ten container package of smokeless tobacco on sell for $9.99 the other day. When I stopped smoking over thirty years ago cigarettes could be bought for 5¢ a piece. Now they are 20¢ a piece. I was buying gas at 90¢ a gallon at that time. Today its at $2.25 but hasn't been long since it was $4.10. Cigarettes aren't priced too high for people to smoke and certainly aren't priced high enough for someone who isn't otherwise motivated to quit to do so. Of course presidents have been attempting to convince people that they should be doing things for the state for two centuries. Their job is to run the state. It's much easier to run the state when you brainwash folks to do things for the sake of the state. The only reason that selfish individualism is a libertarian daydream is because the state is around to discourage it. |
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Post by thunderbird on Sept 9, 2009 21:39:39 GMT -5
We as citizens of "the state" choose and elect those that will run the state. It makes no sense to then not provide the president with the other resources he needs to run the state. Part of those resources are its citizens. We get to choose how to help and how we can still contribute. Its like a sports team. A coach cannot lead a team to victory if every player if playing for themselves. The team that comes together and plays together is the team that wins. Electing our leaders is part of our investment. Its not the end of the investment though. We still have to help out, even if its by going to school and bettering ourselves. If all we do is elect someone and then go do our own thing, it becomes a wasted effort. The President becomes a puppet and is leading no one; is running nothing. Then, there is no point in electing anyone. Might as well make it complete anarchy.
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Post by el Gusano on Sept 9, 2009 22:05:17 GMT -5
No wonder our once-great nation is in trouble.
Oh, and I saw cigarettes on sale the other day for only $6.45 a pack if you bought 3 packs. Plenty of people still smoking them.
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 9, 2009 22:17:23 GMT -5
We as citizens of "the state" choose and elect those that will run the state. Yeah? What choice do we have? Really. What choice do we have that isn't already given to us by the Democrats and Republicans? All we are asked to do is rubber stamp their selection. Does it matter which one we select? How has our foreign policy changed since January? What great legislation has the new congress pushed through that wasn't put into motion prior to the change in leadership? We have no choice. |
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printemps
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Post by printemps on Sept 9, 2009 22:59:32 GMT -5
Of course presidents have been attempting to convince people that they should be doing things for the state for two centuries. Their job is to run the state. It's much easier to run the state when you brainwash folks to do things for the sake of the state. Including the mutts "brainwashed" to work in a war factory in 1942? Gen. David Petraeus to 2009 grads at Princeton, his alma mater: "This is the time to ask yourself 'what pressing needs can I help address. Nothing is more fulfilling than public service. It gives you the opportunity to put your faith in action in ways regular jobs don't allow. Community service compliments classroom learning well. It is in the real world, where one gets hands dirty, boots dusty, that one learns the most."Unimpressed, most kids embraced "selfish individualism" in the parking lot. |
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 10, 2009 3:34:31 GMT -5
Of course presidents have been attempting to convince people that they should be doing things for the state for two centuries. Their job is to run the state. It's much easier to run the state when you brainwash folks to do things for the sake of the state. Including the mutts "brainwashed" to work in a war factory in 1942? Of course. During war times government propaganda machines are at their highest output. |
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Post by Warkitty on Sept 10, 2009 6:16:30 GMT -5
I'm glad not everyone chooses to do things only for themselves. If they did, we'd not have a police force, firemen, or military to speak of. Our parents would all be selfish and horrible, our teachers would be even less inclined to teach....
While there is a point at which any working society works because of the self-interest of the individuals that make it up, pure self interest exhibited by the same individuals with no interest in the public good would tear the very fabric of what makes human beings the pivitol species in their environment, let alone the fabric of what makes our societies work.
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 10, 2009 7:59:55 GMT -5
I fully agree with you but where should those values be attained from? It is one thing to set an example for children and teens to learn from and I expect those we put into positions of authority to set those examples but is it the governments place to declare it to be the duty of those children and teens to work selflessly for the good of others? Isn't that something that one should be hearing from one's family and spiritual leaders? Shouldn't we separate things a bit?
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Post by el Gusano on Sept 10, 2009 8:13:56 GMT -5
And none of those people get paid, do they?
The very basis of liberty is self-ownership. Doing what benefits one the most will benefit others the most, as well. Even if it's simply helping others. When you're forced to do it, it is no longer charity, and it is nothing but the theft of private property (self-ownership), and does nothing but destroy liberty.
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Post by Warkitty on Sept 10, 2009 9:41:50 GMT -5
If they were JUST about helping themselves, Gus, they'd take better paying, less stressful jobs than these.
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okz
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Post by okz on Sept 10, 2009 9:54:05 GMT -5
Show us the birth certificate and this will all stop  |
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Post by Warkitty on Sept 10, 2009 9:59:52 GMT -5
I doubt that. There would just be another demand for some other document or proof of some damn thing or another.
Sorta like terrorists. Give an inch and they demand more.
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printemps
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Post by printemps on Sept 10, 2009 10:03:06 GMT -5
Including the mutts "brainwashed" to work in a war factory in 1942? Of course. During war times government propaganda machines are at their highest output. You've pulled back the curtain of his agenda. The Census Bureau is really a civilian-army for Obama. Americorp, young people fixing neighborhoods, feeding homeless people, and counseling teenagers, are - in point of fact -a dangerous group of armed thugs, coming to take away your guns and liberty. It's now obvious why he wanted Guantanamo closed. |
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Post by sargonkiadi on Sept 10, 2009 10:06:41 GMT -5
vvvvvvvvvv..... ttshh uuuunnn ttsshhh uuUuunnn TTttTsshHhhh
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 10, 2009 10:45:43 GMT -5
Of course. During war times government propaganda machines are at their highest output. You've pulled back the curtain of his agenda. Oh, it's not just his agenda but the agenda of every commander in chief we've had since Washington. Eisenhower came closest to breaking the mold but even he made speeches espousing the virtues of public service and patriotism and sacrificing for the country. And I'm not saying that any of that is bad, just that government representatives have no business demanding those things from the citizens. Actually, he's trying something very similar to that. The Director of the US Census Bureau is being made to report, not just to the Secretary of Commerce, but also directly to the White House. Republicans are complaining that this action works to politicize the 2010 Census and they have a legitimate concern there. While I have a lot of concern over the US government operating this type of organization I don't think they are carrying guns. The BATFE will be the ones coming to take away guns if it ever comes to that, which I don't think will happen. No, Americorp volunteers are most likely just well meaning folk who do have a sense of community service about them and that is all well and good but the pledge they are made to take is somewhat disturbing: The AmeriCorps Pledge
I will get things done for America -
to make our people safer,
smarter, and healthier.
I will bring Americans together
to strengthen our communities.
Faced with apathy,
I will take action.
Faced with conflict,
I will seek common ground.
Faced with adversity,
I will persevere.
I will carry this commitment
with me this year and beyond.
I am an AmeriCorps member,
and I will get things done. Why not get things done for our fellow man? Why get things done "for America"? It's more indoctrination to make one feel that all is done for the sake of country when they should be willing to do this community service for their own sake. Shouldn't they? Had Bush served one more term he would have closed Guantanamo on close to the same schedule. |
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Post by spastikcomma on Sept 10, 2009 10:48:06 GMT -5
I like the Founding Father's policy of every man for himself.
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printemps
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Post by printemps on Sept 10, 2009 12:06:28 GMT -5
Eisenhower came closest to breaking the mold No kidding, how? Let me guess. That way the Census can be fabricated to advance 'national socialism.' As Christian whites again are reminded, "You are losing your influence, you are losing your numbers." Time to re-read “In Defense of Internment: The Case for ‘Racial Profiling’ in World War II and the War on Terror.” Lie on your Census form and throw a wrench into Obama's elaborate data mining program. Getting things done for our fellow man is an accessory of selfish individualism? |
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Post by el Gusano on Sept 10, 2009 12:41:50 GMT -5
Does it benefit the cop to become a cop?
Does it benefit you to pay the cop?
Oh, and teachers, when you figure in all the benefits, hours, etc., make more per hour than most professional people except for trial lawyers and judges. So, it's a lot of sacrifices for a lot of years, but guess who it benefits?
Why do you do what you do?
I volunteer my time to the community because it benefits me. If it didn't benefit me, what would be my motive?
When you do what benefits you the most, you help others as a natural consequence. If you simply work out of obligation, blind patriotism, or whatever, the long term benefit will usually not be to the direction you're expecting.
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 10, 2009 14:55:02 GMT -5
Eisenhower came closest to breaking the mold No kidding, how? His warnings about the military-industrial complex came about as an understanding of the indoctrination taking place in our schools and throughout society to build support for the companies that supplied materials to the military and it being patriotic to support these companies. It was a melding of government and business in a way to subjugate the citizens to the profits of both. The military contractors profited in money while the government profited in power while the citizen is pushed harder to pay for it all. It probably has more to do with congressional redistricting than anything else. Not an accessory, a luxury. When its done out of love instead of out of guilt its a beautiful thing. When its done out of guilt it breeds contempt. |
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printemps
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Post by printemps on Sept 10, 2009 19:00:31 GMT -5
Ike was referring to tendencies of defense contractors to corrupt policymakers. He feared it endangered our liberties. The Red Menace "indoctrination" was emotional blackmail. The Cincinnati Reds temporarily renamed themselves the “Cincinnati Redlegs" to spare the team potential money-losing connotations.
Nothing Eisenhower said - nor any other president applauding a public service impulse - conceivably rises to a comparable indoctrination threshold.
Nor should it "breed contempt."
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 10, 2009 21:06:06 GMT -5
You've really bought in to this collectivism stuff. Haven't you?
Thanking someone for their service is one thing and I have no problem with government recognizing such service. However, imploring our youth to work hard and never give up on themselves or they will be giving up on the country is implying a debt they owe to their government and using guilt to collect on it. That is not something our president should involve himself in. Not only is it not government's place to do so but any time guilt is used as a motivator it will breed contempt for what one is made to feel guilty over.
Think about the times guilt has been used as a motivator in your life and think of the results.
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printemps
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Post by printemps on Sept 10, 2009 21:37:19 GMT -5
You've really bought in to this collectivism stuff. Haven't you? I dispute the notion that presidential public service advocacy amounts to stabs at hegemony or mind control. Or your mental image of choice. That's not buying in to collectivism. |
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Post by Justin Thyme on Sept 10, 2009 22:08:35 GMT -5
You've really bought in to this collectivism stuff. Haven't you? I dispute the notion that presidential public service advocacy amounts to stabs at hegemony or mind control. Or your mental image of choice. That's not buying in to collectivism. I guess that's your choice to believe. Once mind control takes over and one buys into the propaganda it's hard to back out. |
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printemps
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Post by printemps on Sept 10, 2009 22:39:23 GMT -5
Not to mention it saps your precious bodily fluids.
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Scarlet&Gray
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Post by Scarlet&Gray on Sept 11, 2009 10:50:31 GMT -5
Joe Wilson (R) South Carolina. Summed up the GOP in his statement. GOP has no leader no plans no vision. Just shut the Black Man up if need be yell out statements during his speeches. GOP is in serious trouble.
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Post by el Gusano on Sept 11, 2009 12:37:52 GMT -5
Funny.
Obama changed the part he was lying about.
I wonder if that would have happened if he hadn't been called on the carpet about it?
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Post by Tsavodiner on Sept 12, 2009 20:55:43 GMT -5
"Three cups potassium nitrate, two cups charcoal, one cup sulphur".
18 USC 2332.
Better "just quit".
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Post by vanstheman on Sept 12, 2009 22:42:29 GMT -5
And just a "pinch" of wacky juice.
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