The fifth amendment-Never talk to LE

[duke]

freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=108089&Disp=0#C0

[Tsavodiner]

Another big crowd-pleaser from His Eliminence....

[Police Moderator]

fuck'em. shoot all pigs, everywhere, every chance afforded. IMO

Nice sentiment from your like minded compadres there, Duke.

[goomba]

[Justin Thyme]

I have seen the first video on that site but not the second. Regardless of what the commenters on that site had to say I have to say that both of those videos on that site should be required viewing for every person over the age of twelve. My step mother is from Guatemala and even though she was born in this country she lived the majority of her life in Guatemala. I'm often amazed at her lack of full understanding as to the extent our rights go. To her you consent to a search or you get shot.

[Police Moderator]

The booklet, If An Agent Knocks, although geared more towards organizations, has some well researched topics covering numerous contacts with the government and what your legal rights actually are. Difficult to find on the web page, but I linked it for those interested.

Ironic that one can find a gem or two from Duke, but sifting through the other 99.9% of BS to find it causes many to lose interest before finding the gem. The old adage about the boy that cried wolf comes to mind.

Duke has not learned the lesson most cops learn early in their careers... The most difficult virtues to attain (In LE, but also in any other venue) are your character, your integrity and your credibility.

They are also the easiest virtues to lose.

[professorx]

Oct 10, 2009 7:22:28 GMT -5 Justin Thyme said:

I have seen the first video on that site but not the second. Regardless of what the commenters on that site had to say I have to say that both of those videos on that site should be required viewing for every person over the age of twelve.

Great. So when another 14 year old is killed in the presence of more than 100 witnesses, they will all remember "Don't talk to cops".

I hate fear mongering. I was in a place last week and some guatemalan kids (10 and 11 year olds) were walking past. They said "You scared us, we thought you were the police". I asked "Why are you scared of the cops?" They explained that their parents said the cops had been kidnapping many kids in that area.

Bad guys propagate fear to keep people from exposing their illegal activities. So if someone is pushing bullshit I have to wonder if they are a bad guy or a person that is easily misguided.

[Justin Thyme]

Professorx, are you saying that the fifth amendment is the reason some 14 year olds are killed? The two videos shown on that site presented the concepts of the fourth and fifth amendments in very reasonable and responsible manners. I especially thought the second video showed how one can be assertive of one's rights while still being polite and respectful to authority. The videos did not depend on using falsehoods into scaring people about the police but it did present the duty of the police in an unbiased manner.

I guess I'm just not sure what your complaint is.

[professorx]

Oct 11, 2009 13:42:33 GMT -5 Justin Thyme said:

Professorx, are you saying that the fifth amendment is the reason some 14 year olds are killed? The two videos shown on that site presented the concepts of the fourth and fifth amendments in very reasonable and responsible manners. I especially thought the second video showed how one can be assertive of one's rights while still being polite and respectful to authority. The videos did not depend on using falsehoods into scaring people about the police but it did present the duty of the police in an unbiased manner.

I guess I'm just not sure what your complaint is.

I thought more about your message after I replied. The intent of your message seemed to be "Exert your rights," rather than the blog's message of "Never talk to Law Enforcement".

If a person believes that it is in their best interest and their right never to talk to cops, then there will be more situations just like what happened in Chicago a few weeks ago. A child was beaten to death in the street with 100+ people there and everyone exercised their 5th ammendment right to never talk to cops.

About once a year you will read a story in the paper about how a local person was killed, yet no witnesses. This whole "never talk to LE" thing really upsets me.

[professorx]

Oct 10, 2009 7:57:43 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

Duke has not learned the lesson most cops learn early in their careers... The most difficult virtues to attain (In LE, but also in any other venue) are your character, your integrity and your credibility.

Are they attained or something a person either has or not?

For example if you were going into the clergy, could a person without these traits learn them?

If you were going to become a defense attorney, could you train yourself out of them to do your job?

[Police Moderator]

Are they attained or something a person either has or not?

In my opinion, character and integrity are potential traits one is born with; although they can be learned and can be taught. Kind of like raw steel, brittle unless tempered.

Credibility is earned.

Even if one is born with the potential to have character and integrity, parenting can either stifle them or instill them. In some cases they are the result of experience(s) that can strengthen them.

[Tsavodiner]

If you were going to become a defense attorney, could you train yourself out of them to do your job?

Ever see an egg-sucking dog that could be made to quit? ;D

[Police Moderator]

If you were going to become a defense attorney, could you train yourself out of them to do your job?

The very best attorneys do not train themselves out of these traits. We read about prosecutors and defense counsels who have done so in the "Embarrassing Acts by Attorneys" page and on the disbarment posts of the ABA.

We read about the LEOs who have no character, integrity or credibility (Or lost them) whenever we read about wrong cops.

The 1%'rs (just like the outlaw MC gangs) of both groups sometimes can make the other 99% look bad. Those that think the 99% are just like the 1% have little credibility in the first place.

[professorx]

Oct 12, 2009 2:38:19 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

If you were going to become a defense attorney, could you train yourself out of them to do your job?

The very best attorneys do not train themselves out of these traits. We read about prosecutors and defense counsels who have done so in the "Embarrassing Acts by Attorneys" page and on the disbarment posts of the ABA.

We read about the LEOs who have no character, integrity or credibility (Or lost them) whenever we read about wrong cops.

The 1%'rs (just like the outlaw MC gangs) of both groups sometimes can make the other 99% look bad. Those that think the 99% are just like the 1% have little credibility in the first place.

I think a lot of lawyers are OK, it is just the defense lawyers I don't care for.

Put it in comparison. A cop does what he does out of a sense obligation. He might ask "What is the right thing to do."

Defense attornies claim "We are doing what we do for the greater good, the rule of law, protecting rights."

Fine.

[professorx]

Oct 12, 2009 2:38:19 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

If you were going to become a defense attorney, could you train yourself out of them to do your job?

The very best attorneys do not train themselves out of these traits. We read about prosecutors and defense counsels who have done so in the "Embarrassing Acts by Attorneys" page and on the disbarment posts of the ABA.

We read about the LEOs who have no character, integrity or credibility (Or lost them) whenever we read about wrong cops.

The 1%'rs (just like the outlaw MC gangs) of both groups sometimes can make the other 99% look bad. Those that think the 99% are just like the 1% have little credibility in the first place.

I have ill feelings for criminal defense attornies, not all of them.

He is the issue to me. Defense lawyers say "I do what I do for the rule of law, the greater good, etc." What happens to this "greater good" and the rule of law, when the client is out of cash?

There is no sense of morality or ethics, only "Who is paying me?"

[duke]

Oct 12, 2009 19:17:20 GMT -5 professorx said:

There is no sense of morality or ethics, only "Who is paying me?"

The same can be said for prosecutors, [Michael Nifong] judges, [Thomas R. Maloney] and police.
Cops say, “I joined the force to make a positive difference in the community.” . . . Until the mayor threatens to eliminate the perk of take home cars.
Nobody wants violent criminals on the street, not even defense attorneys. But defense attorneys recognize more of the government corruption than the general public will ever know. Defending even the most violent criminal can sometimes be the only means available to fight back. As far as the getting paid, everybody has to be paid for the service they perform.

“About once a year you will read a story in the paper about how a local person was killed, yet no witnesses. This whole "never talk to LE" thing really upsets me.”

The subject line is never talk to LE.
In the subject line how much space is available for qualifying statements?
There is nothing in the text nor in the video that remotely suggests refusing to be a witness either for the police or at a trial.
Unenumerated credit was included that readers and viewers could accept the information presented without a knee-jerk inclusion of the kitchen sink. Apparently that was another assumption serving to make an ass of those who would presume that someone else could actually think. Even PM’s usual bias was set aside long enough to recognize the pitfalls articulated in video.

Must every writer or speaker include all possible exemptions to every general statement?

The no witness problem usually has much more to do with fear of retribution from the ‘friends’ of the perpetrator of a crime than from LE.

[professorx]

Oct 13, 2009 9:20:21 GMT -5 duke said:

Oct 12, 2009 19:17:20 GMT -5 professorx said:

There is no sense of morality or ethics, only "Who is paying me?"

The same can be said for prosecutors, [Michael Nifong] judges, [Thomas R. Maloney] and police.
Cops say, “I joined the force to make a positive difference in the community.” . . . Until the mayor threatens to eliminate the perk of take home cars.
Nobody wants violent criminals on the street, not even defense attorneys. But defense attorneys recognize more of the government corruption than the general public will ever know. Defending even the most violent criminal can sometimes be the only means available to fight back. As far as the getting paid, everybody has to be paid for the service they perform.

“About once a year you will read a story in the paper about how a local person was killed, yet no witnesses. This whole "never talk to LE" thing really upsets me.”

The subject line is never talk to LE.
In the subject line how much space is available for qualifying statements?
There is nothing in the text nor in the video that remotely suggests refusing to be a witness either for the police or at a trial.
Unenumerated credit was included that readers and viewers could accept the information presented without a knee-jerk inclusion of the kitchen sink. Apparently that was another assumption serving to make an ass of those who would presume that someone else could actually think. Even PM’s usual bias was set aside long enough to recognize the pitfalls articulated in video.

Must every writer or speaker include all possible exemptions to every general statement?

The no witness problem usually has much more to do with fear of retribution from the ‘friends’ of the perpetrator of a crime than from LE.

I need to figure out "multi-quote". As far as prosecutors, I assume they believe their job is "gate-keepers". There is no financial gain for them, they just want to pick "winners" only. If something is weak or shady, they might pass over the case. This again is all my assumption.

As far as "never talk to police"... I've got big problems with the idea no matter who is the source. Gang-members have the whole "no snitching" thing, many other folks spead the idea that the police are always setting people up, so even talking to them as a witness is a bad idea. Either way the point is "never talk to police".

Luckily I have never been the victim of violent crime, but if I were, I would hopefully have witnesses that would testify...

I know this is just a message board, and there is a great deal of hyperbole and crazyness here, but there are people that breed fear into the public about police with "bad cop" stories.

How often do you read about a violent crime committed in the midst of 100s of people, yet no witnesses? Why do you think this is?

[Police Moderator]

Cops say, “I joined the force to make a positive difference in the community.” . . . Until the mayor threatens to eliminate the perk of take home cars.

And exactly what does one thing (make a positive difference in the community) have to do with the other (Take home cars)?

I mean, "As far as the getting paid, everybody has to be paid for the service they perform", right?

Or is Duke expecting LE to make a positive difference in the community for free?

[duke]

Oct 13, 2009 17:47:40 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

Cops say, “I joined the force to make a positive difference in the community.” . . . Until the mayor threatens to eliminate the perk of take home cars.

And exactly what does one thing (make a positive difference in the community) have to do with the other (Take home cars)?

I mean, "As far as the getting paid, everybody has to be paid for the service they perform", right?

Or is Duke expecting LE to make a positive difference in the community for free?

Now PM is claiming that LE's only compensation was a take-home- car. Be careful about stretching too far, you may have to walk back.
PM has joined the advertising fraternity. . . 'If one yells a lie loud enough and long enough some people will begin to believe the lie. [Only PM and other blue-gang members have credibility.]

[goomba]

Oct 14, 2009 11:03:13 GMT -5 duke said:

Oct 13, 2009 17:47:40 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

And exactly what does one thing (make a positive difference in the community) have to do with the other (Take home cars)?

I mean, "As far as the getting paid, everybody has to be paid for the service they perform", right?

Or is Duke expecting LE to make a positive difference in the community for free?

Now PM is claiming that LE's only compensation was a take-home- car. Be careful about stretching too far, you may have to walk back.
PM has joined the advertising fraternity. . . 'If one yells a lie loud enough and long enough some people will begin to believe the lie. [Only PM and other blue-gang members have credibility.]

take home cars were given instead of the city paying the officers. perhaps if ducky duke was not so anti-cop, he might learn somthing.

as for pay, a new rookie is bringing home the equivalent of an officer that has been on the department for over 6 years.

[duke]

goomba, NOBODY wants to take a cut in pay. However most notably the auto worker unions have taken several cuts in pay as well as many others in the private sector. On what basis should the public sector be exempt. I advocated on this take-home-car issue when the issue was first raised that all government workers be treated equally.
There is still a very large disconnect when PM asks if LE should be expected to work for free where the take-home-car issue represented only a fraction of LE's compensation.

[Tsavodiner]

Must every writer or speaker include all possible exemptions to every general statement?

In your case, yes.

[LimitedRecourse]

"Cops say, “I joined the force to make a positive difference in the community.” . . . Until the mayor threatens to eliminate the perk of take home cars."

You may remember that the police officers were fighting to keep vehicles in neighborhoods and on the streets FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF THE COMMUNITY. You might further recall that the dedicated officers REFUSED TO JUST QUIT as you are implying. You are not merely dishonest---you blatantly LIE to make false points.

"As far as the getting paid, everybody has to be paid for the service they perform."

Well, except for the police officers.

"Must every writer or speaker include all possible exemptions to every general statement?"

Must every bad action of a single police officer be made to represent law enforcement in general?

[BlackFox]

Oct 15, 2009 14:14:22 GMT -5 LimitedRecourse said:

You may remember that the police officers were fighting to keep vehicles in neighborhoods and on the streets FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF THE COMMUNITY. You might further recall that the dedicated officers REFUSED TO JUST QUIT as you are implying.

Horse. Shit.

[LimitedRecourse]

No it isn't...review the threads. Several of you suggested we just QUIT to get what we feel we deserve. Gently rebuffed, you were. I know it must pain you and duke, but most police officers really DO wish to help their communities. Everyone simply quitting would have devastated the City.

[Justin Thyme]

Oct 15, 2009 15:05:03 GMT -5 BlackFox said:

Oct 15, 2009 14:14:22 GMT -5 LimitedRecourse said:

You may remember that the police officers were fighting to keep vehicles in neighborhoods and on the streets FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF THE COMMUNITY. You might further recall that the dedicated officers REFUSED TO JUST QUIT as you are implying.

Horse. Shit.

Actually, I advocated strongly that Chattanooga Police Officers quit en masse over the take home care thing and everyone of them who responded responded with, "I'm no quitter", and refused to quit.

[BlackFox]

Not being able to buy groceries probably had nothing at all to do with it.

[Tsavodiner]

you'd know.

[LimitedRecourse]

"Not being able to buy groceries probably had nothing at all to do with it."

It had a lot to do with it---that $150.00 per month fee that was proposed would have come DIRECTLY OUT OF MY GROCERY MONEY. The Mayor and his cronies (who make $100,000.00 each year) have no idea how great of an impact that would have on someone who make 1/3 or THEIR income. And they don't care.

[BlackFox]

Oct 15, 2009 20:25:12 GMT -5 Tsavodiner said:

you'd know.

That's some fine police work there Lou.

I haven't heard that retort since grade school.