Question about Iran and Russi

[el Gusano]

Have they ever in their history been allies before now?

[ssmynkint]

No. Russia and England played "The Great Game" trying to win-over Iran (Victorian period). We, with the CIA, helped suppress left-leaning democratic parties to prop up the Shah, who was pro-American to say the least (and most) .
But because Russia and Iran have trade relations doesn't mean they are allies, by any stretch of imagination.

[el Gusano]

I wasn't just talking about recent history, I'm talking about ever. Russia has been around for how long? 2500 years or so? (Even before being called Russia.)

And, they may not have a written treaty, but they are certainly allied by commerce, and Putin has made it clear that with about 15% of Russia's citizens being Muslim, that it is certainly mutually beneficial for their alliance now.

However, if the leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia should become president, I would question as to whether or not this alliance will survive.

[ssmynkint]

Interesting reinvention of history. The "Russ" or vikings, didn't enter "Russia" until ca. 800 C.E.. Recorded history does not indicate any alliance(s) between the territories that are now Ruisiia and Iran. And trade ageements and % of population has NOTHING to do with any meaningful definition of "allaince." If the actual meaning/definition of words matters. What "is" is.

[el Gusano]

According to their own history, which includes a copy of the Hebrew texts that were discovered in their territory, they've been around as a people for about 2500 years, being referred to by different names, including Gog, at the oldest, then the Greeks called them something else during the Byzantine Empire era, and then as a result of the name of one of the eastern Slavic states (that disintegrated) Kievan Rus. That name was acquired about 300 AD, and they adopted Orthodox Christianity about 800-900 AD.

However, you can go to Moscow and argue with their museum about whether or not they were really a distinct people that long. I simply asked a question that I thought someone might know the answer to. You obviously don't, but still felt the need to say something.

[ssmynkint]

Well, no.
Biblical references are notoriously hard to accurately identify. It is very doubtful that Gog meant Russia, and even if it did, it referred more to geography then people. During the period in question, many, including some Byzantines, thought Gog referred to Khazaria, a Turkic realm.
Kiev was most likely founded 9th century C.E. and was under Khazar sovereignty, and later Magyar/Khazar rule from ca. 830-880 C.E. The Rus gained control of Kiev 880, and conversion of the royalty to Orthodox Catholicism took place ca. 988 C.E. Obviously, Kievian Russia (which, being ethnically Nordic/Ukrainian, was distinct from ethnic Russian) could not have existed prior to the 9th century C.E.
It is very interesting that you are so willing to except soviet era self-serving revisionist history in this instance. You typically seem to disdainfully reject "histories" with which you disagree. Have you been duped by soviet propaganda?
Horrors!

[el Gusano]

Thanks for playing, try again.

The Greeks referred to the group in the general area as Scythians. I couldn't remember the name last night.

I will take the Russians' view of their own history, as well as that of other historians over yours, but it's nice of you to try.

Too bad that what I was asking was if they had ever made peace with those in Iran, by whatever name they were called over the centuries.

You can call back in tomorrow to try again.

[ssmynkint]

No. You asked about alliance, not peace.
Yes, the Greeks had a word for it, but Russian and the Rus didn't exist then. And the Greeks were notorious for their slanted, biased view of others and history....OH, THAT'S why you reference them!!
Too bad you don't cite sources for the "other historians" and have such a limited grasp of academic history and consistency of logical discourse.
It would also help if you had some credibility or clear knowledge about something before reverting to smarmy condescension.
It might be better for you to refrain from asking questions about something you know nothing about if you have such limited capacity (the "cap" is silent) to accept information.
No, I won't call back. Why waste my time with someone like you who has no intellectual integrity, won't listen and can't meaningfully discourse?

[el Gusano]

Good. Now that Ronad is gone, does anyone know if there has ever been an alliance between the Russians and Iranians, by whatever name they've been called throughout history?

[creekcat62]

No. I googled and got a wikipedia piece on this. There is a history of a Russian Cossack invading Northern Persia in the 1660's. Also Russia competeing with other colonial powers for land and influence. But no mention of an "alliance" between the two at anytime.

[printemps]

Oct 30, 2010 11:33:09 GMT -5 el Gusano said:

I will take the Russians' view of their own history, as well as that of other historians over yours, but it's nice of you to try.

Can we see "the Russians view of their own history" you are referencing?

[el Gusano]

Oct 30, 2010 13:10:14 GMT -5 creekcat62 said:

No. I googled and got a wikipedia piece on this. There is a history of a Russian Cossack invading Northern Persia in the 1660's. Also Russia competeing with other colonial powers for land and influence. But no mention of an "alliance" between the two at anytime.

Thanks for the info and thanks for answering the question instead of being an imbecile. That's all I can find over the years as well. I find it interesting that they are now allied economically, and Russia might be getting the land they wanted all along without an invasion.

Oct 30, 2010 13:43:22 GMT -5 printemps said:

Can we see "the Russians view of their own history" you are referencing?

Sure. Here's the map:

Map

[creekcat62]

Well there is a proverb, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[printemps]

Oct 30, 2010 15:59:15 GMT -5 el Gusano said:

Oct 30, 2010 13:10:14 GMT -5 creekcat62 said:

No. I googled and got a wikipedia piece on this. There is a history of a Russian Cossack invading Northern Persia in the 1660's. Also Russia competeing with other colonial powers for land and influence. But no mention of an "alliance" between the two at anytime.

Thanks for the info and thanks for answering the question instead of being an imbecile. That's all I can find over the years as well.

The Googled answer is: "no mention." Just holler if you need any other Wikipedia help.

Wikipedia elsewhere takes note of the infinitely more troubling alliance between Iran and international banks:

Credit Suisse employees stripped the identities of Iranian banks enabling funds to be transferred to the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran and the Aerospace Industries Organization, entities respectively involved in the production of nuclear weapons and long range missiles. Credit Suisse advised Iranian banks such as Bank Melli and Bank Saderat on methods to hide their identities and send more than a billion dollars through New York banks.

[Warkitty]

Yeah, there have been people in the area of Russia for a very long time. They're not the same culturally in any way shape or form to the people there now, but so what? By the same measure, we know there have been people and goverments in Peru for at least as long... did the Peruvians have an alliance with the United States in their history before around 1500?

In short Gus, I once upon a time did some research on that matter and have to say... I gotta say ssmynkint is not an idiot as you'd seem to want to paint him/her. You're the one taking an incredibly simplistic approach as if the massive upheaval brought about by the Russ invasion of Slavic territory didn't actually happen and didn't drastically change who the people of modern Russia are now. It's like pretending the Norman Invasion didn't happen or change the entire structure of who the Brittish were from Anglo-Saxon rule to Norman rule. Sure, you can claim it's the same people, but the political climate down to the governing social structure at the small village level turned into a completely different people. Much the same way that Spanish invasion changed the Mexican people already living there.

In addition, as pointed out.. a trade agreement is not the same thing as an alliance. Has there been TRADE between the Russ and the Middle East? Hell yes. The Russ traded heavily up and down, east and west because that's what the Vikings in general did when they took over an area. They traded. Yes, they did trade with the peoples that at the time lived in the area of Iran. Were they allies? Certainly not. Even when it was Turkey, there was trade but not alliance.

Are we ALLIES with China? Cuz, we sure do trade with them a lot so by what you're suggesting, that must mean we're allies, right?

[el Gusano]

Oct 31, 2010 1:28:45 GMT -5 Warkitty said:

ssmynkint is not an idiot as you'd seem to want to paint him/her.

I wasn't saying that Ronad is an idiot because of the content of the information contained in the reply. I was saying he's an idiot because of the Ronadness of the reply.

I asked a simple question, and instead of answering the question, as you just did and as Creek Cat did, he comes in with complete asininity.

And I've just spent the better part of seven years around many Russians who escaped the pogroms (either themselves or their parents), and they disagree with your assessment of the people of the area of Russia. Yes, there were invasions, yes there influxes of different people, but they are all very proud of their history going back before the time of Christ, and I was looking for a simple answer to a simple question as to whether or not they had ever been allied before, as Putin now claims they now are. Maybe he didn't really mean it when he said they are, but instead of looking inside his mind, I will take him at his simple word and was wanting a simple answer as to whether or not they had ever been allied before. Not some socio-political essay on whether or not what the Russians believe about themselves is true or whether or not Putin really meant it when he said Iran is their ally.

If I wanted a discussion like that, it probably wouldn't matter because I think Zhirinovsky will win the next election and any alliance will be out the window, unless of course Putin suspends elections or something like that. But the purpose of the question was whether or not the people in that area, whether called Scythians, Rus, Russians, Gog, whatever, had ever had an alliance with the people in the area of Iran, whether called Iranians, Persians, or whatever.

[mikeydokey]

El Gus, you know about Gog and Magog! Why do you want to interfere with the ignorance of the unbelievers? Let them revel in their ignorance and let us revel in the knowledge that everything that is to coma has been disclosed to us in advance and in the fact that all that is to pass hass come to pass before.

[el Gusano]

I know that the people from the area with Russia will be allied (after one fashion or another) with those of Iran to come against Israel. Putin has made a big deal out of this alliance, both economically, and because about 15% of the Russian population is Muslim. But, I was going through my head and trying to come up with some time that they had ever been allied before and could think of nothing. That's why it was a simple question.

I find it interesting that these lands (the people from the area of Russia and Iran) will come after the riches of Israel, and until recently, Israel's "treasure" was oranges, some minerals, Epilady, Uzis, and a few other things that were not unique to Israel. But, not too long ago, a Texas oilman and a Russian Jew teamed up to look for oil based on the prophecies of Deuteronomy, and they hit it BIG.

[el Gusano]

Although there are a couple of people who know more about Russian history than the Russians themselves, and they know better than the Russians do in that they are not allies with Iran, even though Russia claims they are, here's a little list of others who can see reality as well:

Russia and Iran - the Islamic Republic and the country that not so long ago banned organised religion - are not easy allies

the two countries can be said to have reached the level of a tactical, if not yet a strategic alliance

Asserting Russia's role in the Middle East and reinforcing his alliance with Iran were ways to do this.

Russia's backing for Syria, Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran, however, soon came into conflict with Putin's goal of moving to improve ties with the Sunni states of the Arab world, especially Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf Arab States, Jordan and Egypt, which were deeply suspicious of Iran and its allies.

A key economic ally of Iran, Russia has resisted Western pressure...

“Russia Remains Iran's Ally in Spite of Supporting UN Resolution-Larijani,” Mosnews.com, August 6,
2006

There are more, but many of them are articles you have to pay for.

But they're not really allies. Know why? Because SS says so.

And "my" definition of "alliance" is in line with the world's, while yours is in line with... Well, who knows what delusional character you're listening to.

[Warkitty]

iKatherina, Tzarina of Russia (that's Catherin the Great to you) that expanded her boundaries more than any Tzar before her, is rolling in her grave.

[el Gusano]

Know what made her so great?

She drank a pound of coffee per day.

Brewed down into five cups. Some sort of super-espresso.

[Warkitty]

What made her Great wasn't just the coffee. She was an incredibly astute ruler that managed to balance diplomacy with expediency. Once she deposed her husband (who accidentally brutally stabbed himself in the process, right?) she had to keep the nobility liking her enough to not depose her for being a woman or born to the role while she expanded the borders more than Peter did by 50%, improved the nations infrastructure and education opportunities. She was realistic enough to know she couldn't free the serfs without getting deposed, but by her letters with Voltaire it's apparent that was one change she'd wanted to make and couldn't.

[el Gusano]

And, because of the coffee, she was so hyper that she managed to get all that done.

Just a bit jittery.

(Anyone who drinks that much coffee every day is pretty great, though.)

Was if Voltaire who also drank a phenomenal amount of coffee? Or was that Rousseau? (Not super-espresso like her, but 50-60 cups of regular coffee daily.)

[pompey]

Dec 17, 2010 17:37:30 GMT -5 el Gusano said:

Was if Voltaire who also drank a phenomenal amount of coffee? Or was that Rousseau? (Not super-espresso like her, but 50-60 cups of regular coffee daily.)

They both loved their coffee!