Where Are The Police Unions?

[Police Moderator]

Response to, 'Where Are The Police Unions?'

You win, Mike. I’ll bite. I was the last CPD employee that was president of the PBA, and I know the case you speak of. I won’t go into details to embarrass you, but since you brought it up you were not represented for a reason: Your offense wasn’t in the scope of your duties, and the PBA didn’t cover those types of incidents. It isn’t pre-paid legal, it’s an association in a right-to-work state funded by members who don’t want their dues wasted. If they changed their rules, however, I wouldn’t know since I resigned too.

When I look back at those days I think of the meetings you were never at. I think of the effort you brought to employee benefits, which was none. I now serve as the elected first vice president of another organization, the FOP, and I can’t think of a meeting I’ve seen you at thereir either. I think back to the City Council meetings I attended by the hundred over the years, and no Michael Burns. The committee meetings by the dozen I gave my time to bear witness to. Speaking before the State Legislature on behalf of other agencies where you were not in the audience. The disciplinary hearings I sat in beside nervous fellow officers, and the court rooms I sat beside members being wrongly prosecuted in which charges were dismissed in every case in which I participated. I think about the community meetings I’ve spoken at as a guest, the civic organizations I spoke before by their request for my employee-representative efforts. No Michael Burns. I think of the press conferences in front of City Hall with other employee representatives from the PBA, FOP, and IBPO, at the expense of my career advancement. No Michael. And after hundreds of hours of uncompensated expense that in fact has cost me countless dollars and antacid prescriptions and almost certainly a substantial amount of career dissipation on the front pages of newspapers, I think back and recall no Michal Burns.

So with that clarified, I’ll specify a few things you may have missed. Google ‘Joel take home cars chattanooga’ and around 12 months ago, I recall those multiple organizations representatives on television an average of four times a week during the take-home car issue. Warning of the consequences of these actions and more, to the point that you’d have a hard time in finding not just a citizen but any person in the Tri-State area that didn’t know that not hiring police for two years while they retired, were fired, and quit, was bad policy. That those same officers also had a new pay plan put in place that required them to pay for classes for advancement out of pocket in some cases, and that program was de-funded and pay frozen for nearly three years to add insult to the injury of not hiring backup.And that these same officers with frozen pay and no help on the way then had response vehicles removed from 58 percent of them…unless they were willing to pay to use the equipment that provides life and death services to Chattanooga, so backwards a government did they work for. (Demanding consolidation at this same time was a coincidence brought up also.) And that all these things would mathematically and inexorably lead to a spike in crime that ultimately resulted in global (that’s “worldwide”) news coverage of crime in Chattanooga rising, specifically a gang shootout at a downtown “church” in the heart of our revitalized area on Christmas morning.

I’ll give you credit for one thing: The mayor and some of the council found $4.1 million for a “wellness center” this year, while the last they could not find $300,000 cost (or $600,000, depending on which week they were asked in 2010) for cars that could not under any circumstances be made up, as well as the cost of frozen pay and hiring freeze suddenly that dissipated suddenly disappeared when it came time to fight the “Employee Wellness Center Problem” that the council and mayor found Four Point One Million Dollars for over the course of the evening. No, I didn’t light a roman candle over that publicly.

Read more: chattanoogan

[apriled]

This letter by Mr. Burns is absolutely sad. He is truly unaware of the personal sacrifice both FOP and IBPO leaders have made, both to their respective careers and volunteer time away from family.

My husband was a previous vice pres of the FOP, and he does not mind me sharing this as a 26 year employee. He said that the leaders of the FOP and IBPO have been challenged like no others before them to uphold the rights of members, and what is required in the best interest of Chattanooga. Make no mistake about IBPO and FOP leaders Phil Grub, Tim Tomisek, Rob Simmons, Craig Joel, Toby Hewitt. They have been directly in the cross hairs of the most vindictive Mayor in the history of Chattanooga.

These actions taken by Mayor Littlefield have been detrimental to public safety and the CPD:

Within a 20 month period the following actions were taken:

1) Overtime threshold changed from 40 to about 60 hours per week for patrol.
2) Police officers were given take home vehicle in lieu of pay raise for 7 years. They now pay $160 a month to drive vehicles, even if they reside 2 miles out of city limits.
3) No pay increase for 7 years, yet Mayors staff did receive raises, and their car allowance was embedded in and added to their Littlfefield staff salaried. Of course, the TFP did not clarify this point.
4) Insurance for retirees was removed within 18 months of some retiring. This was also a benefit that was preserved for 7 years of no raise, then taken away.

The CPD has a right to be mad as Hell, because they are dealing with a pack liars in Mayor Littlefield. The IBPO and FOP have fought hard to protect the interest of their members. This letter is just a slap in the face from someone that does not know that the Mayor has tried to put the Okay Doke on these leaders for standing up for their members. The past 7 years have been horrible for the CPD.

[Half-Tard]

Oh well don't like it quit...All unions are corrupt and need to be broken up just ask any tea bagger or gop'er

[ssmynkint]

Oh well don't like it quit...All unions are corrupt and need to be broken up just ask any tea bagger or gop'er

Or elGusano.

[Police Moderator]

Since Tennessee Law Enforcement Officers, except for those employed by the Memphis Police Department, cannot, by law, collectively bargain, bindingly arbitrate or strike, the term 'union', regarding LEO in Tennessee, is only used by folks who are throwing the dirty bath water out with the baby.

In essence, El Gusano and Acemen pontificate, with disparate world views, when arguing for/against unions on the ethereal basis that Tennessee LEOs have groups of police officers, who have simply united to exercise political clout, which only idiots can characterize as 'unions'.

When these oranges start shopping in the apple aisle, intelligent discussion can ensue.

[ssmynkint]

Law Enforcement Officers, except for those employed by the Memphis Police Department, cannot, by law, collectively bargain, bindingly arbitrate or strike,

How were your/their rights neutered? Was it done by local legislation? Do the ununionized organized groups "representing" LEOs, and related groups not think or dare to raise this issue for ballot or referendum? Are these groups really so submissive and acquiescing-gutless?
I'm saddened an, honestly, shocked to learn this, given the orgainizations representing themselves as "unions".
I am sorry those in LE and related public services have been given such short shrift not only by the established political "leadership" but also by the electorate at large.
Your burden and service is even greater then I imagined.

[Police Moderator]

Coincidentally, the Memphis Police Officers got their right to be a 'real union' thanks to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and his campaign for equal treatment of all employees of the City of Memphis.

In 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in Memphis, sparking riots and curfews across the City and across the United States.

That, and the fact, in the summer of 1978, Memphis Police went on strike for eight days. As a result, they were awarded by being allowed to have enforceable 'union' rights.

Looking at the history of the corruption of the MPD since, unionization may not be such a good thing.

Members of the MPD were so mistreated, maligned, underpaid, understaffed, with little or no benefits, and had been for decades (Sound familiar?), that the pendulum inevitably swung back way in favor of the rank and file. (After the National Guard got called in to 'protect' the citizens, in the absence of the MPD.)

Maybe a lesson from history need not be repeated, locally.

Shakespeare said, "The smallest worm will turn, being trodden on" and the local rank and file LEOs (And their families and friends) have been stepped on for decades around here.

Local LEO personnel levels, training, benefits, salaries have all been slashed and people are surprised that, while crime is lower, more people are in fear of crime.

We've done more, with less, and plenty of folks are still bitching, red around the ass and all swolt up about the state of LE in Chattanooga, Tennessee?

Good thing the remaining of us are dedicated to what we do.

The younger worms?

They might have a hell of a gym, but they are still seen as worms, by our elected leaders, and I think they won't be as patient as us older trodden worms.

Fix it now, or fix it later or they are gonna be forced to go 'on strike' and you'll be own you own. Posse Comitatus, not withstanding.

You asked for it and you got it.

That is on you, the taxpayer and the voter.

You'll get exactly what you are willing to pay, or vote, for.

[apriled]

"All unions are corrupt"

Are all black gang members, all lawyers thieves, .....?? I think not.

Unions are not all corrupt.

[ssmynkint]

You'll get exactly what you are willing to pay, or vote, for.

Then we're fucked. People seem willing to pay only for those things that benefit them directly and immediately. Fairness to workers, protection for all seem to matter little.

[ssmynkint]

"All unions are corrupt"Are all black gang members, all lawyers thieves, .....?? I think not.Unions are not all corrupt.

He was being ironic, Apriled.

[Police Moderator]

Actually, my point was way, way past Burns, Joel or me.

The fact that rank and file police officers are being forced, more and more, to willingly exercise our right to express our opinions in the media, based on real world knowledge and experience, warms my cold heart.

Burns, Joel and I have been street level cops for a long time and our world views, though seemingly different, express the same current sad state of affairs of our profession, through no fault of our own. We are just all (I speak only for me) dumb old street cops. Yet, we work, pay taxes, marry, procreate, sweat, bleed, vote, have opinions and cry like the rest of us. (We tend to bleed and cry more than the rest of the citizenry.)

I applaud the fact that 'we' are becoming part of the 'discussion'.

'Bout damn time.

[apriled]

Sorry, Female superior minds do not get ironic, just kidding.

On another note, my husband and I have completely different professions. I have always been amazed at the social services volunteerism of LE officers. They take on the social ills of our community trying to serve children, that is completely under the radar. There are more Boy Scout troop leaders, Christmas programs for children, and funds they give to children in need. They just stay quiet about it and serve. I love that about my family members that are law enforcement, I have one local police officer in CPD, another secret service, and FDA. I love um all, and they give more time to social needs than any other group of people I know.

They are damn good people, as most police officers are.

[biofish]

Jan 15, 2012 15:04:11 GMT -5 apriled said:

This letter by Mr. Burns is absolutely sad. He is truly unaware of the personal sacrifice both FOP and IBPO leaders have made, both to their respective careers and volunteer time away from family.

I'm going to go with Ignorant instead of Unaware... but you are right, and it is sad. I would think that if he has read Craig's response then he may not be unaware anymore. ... I am also glad Craig responded like he did as i was writing my own response which mostly contained swear words. It was subsequently deleted.

[Justin Thyme]

I applaud the fact that 'we' are becoming part of the 'discussion'.

I do too but I'm still of the opinion that until every last one of you quit and leave the city and county in a lurch y'all will continue to be screwed.

I have strongly encouraged several of you in the past to quit. I was not mocking you in doing so. You may not be allowed to strike but there is no way they can make you continue your employment. Your excuse for not doing so was that being a police officer is a calling and you don't just quit. I can fully appreciate that sentiment but by not quitting y'all are only making matters worse.

I no longer live in the area but I have close family that does. Personally I believe that until the problem of an underpaid and understaffed police and sheriff's department is resolved everyone of my loved ones living there is in danger. I want all of you from the chief down to the newest rookie to quit all on the same day. CPD and HCSO both.

You won't be out of work three days.

[Gary]

The reason the good cops can't and don't quit is simple: they are the type of people who swore to protect their fellow citizens in spite of the difficulties and obstacles, be they economic, political or otherwise.

It's part and parcel of what makes them cops in the first place, and why society cannot function effectively without them.

Many, probably most of them, could no more walk away from that responsibility that a parent could walk away from their children.

They feel a responsibility to the public they serve, even when others do not.

[Justin Thyme]

Many, probably most of them, could no more walk away from that responsibility that a parent could walk away from their children.

I fully understand that. I also understand that there are some children that parents need to walk away from for the child's own good. Chattanooga is becoming that child. Not doing something drastic, such as sudden resignation of the entire police force, is only going to cause a worse problem. As it stands the CPD is acting as an enabler to a spoiled child.

[osrb]

I have a question on this. Is it possible for a non-public official to get a question on a ballot during election time. If so why do not the people in Chattanooga do one that calls for a raise for CPD and a pay freeze for littlefield and his buddies?

[el Gusano]

Jan 15, 2012 21:05:35 GMT -5 Justin Thyme said:

I do too but I'm still of the opinion that until every last one of you quit and leave the city and county in a lurch y'all will continue to be screwed.

Bingo!

All unions are corrupt, but not all union members are. Many are quite honest and turn to the wrong source for salvation. The unions' only interest is in self preservation, therefore they will not do anything to endanger their existence.

If, however, all employees (of any company, not just cops) quit, then they will either get their way, or will be replaced by equal workers for the same pay. If the job conditions are really that bad, they will get their way.

[LimitedRecourse]

If officers were to quit, they could conceivably lose all their seniority, pensions and benefits. This is a huge considereation for those who are already vested in the pension, as police officers do NOT pay or receive Social Security benefits from working for the City. Would YOU risk not just your current income but ALL YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY/RETIREMENT BENEFITS? Didn't think so.

[ssmynkint]

Didn't think so.

Asking/suggesting LE to resign en mass is just asking them to take another hit for us.
Given anti-labor sentiment, I doubt such a walk-out would illicit support or sympathy and would be as likely to lead to hiring underqualified scabs to replace the real LEOs.
Better, more equitable effort should be in mobilizing the electorate AND VOTING TO PAY MORE TAXES (given appropriate oversight/administration/accountability) to provide LE with what they need.
Volunteers, or do we just continue to push LE out on point?

[Justin Thyme]

Jan 16, 2012 13:55:52 GMT -5 LimitedRecourse said:

If officers were to quit, they could conceivably lose all their seniority, pensions and benefits. This is a huge considereation for those who are already vested in the pension, as police officers do NOT pay or receive Social Security benefits from working for the City. Would YOU risk not just your current income but ALL YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY/RETIREMENT BENEFITS? Didn't think so.

So the promise of a pension has you trapped. You are willing to tie yourself to a crappy employer for five to ten years because that employer, who has broken every other promise made to you, has promised you a pension.

Of course they will keep that promise.

Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome each time is the definition of what?

If you aren't willing to do what it takes to implement change for yourself and your family what can I do?

Jan 16, 2012 14:04:09 GMT -5 ssmynkint said:

Didn't think so.

Asking/suggesting LE to resign en mass is just asking them to take another hit for us.
Given anti-labor sentiment, I doubt such a walk-out would illicit support or sympathy and would be as likely to lead to hiring underqualified scabs to replace the real LEOs.
Better, more equitable effort should be in mobilizing the electorate AND VOTING TO PAY MORE TAXES (given appropriate oversight/administration/accountability) to provide LE with what they need.
Volunteers, or do we just continue to push LE out on point?

Ssmynkint, that sure has worked so far. Hasn't it? How do you propose that the electorate be mobilized? What way will work that hasn't been tried already?

Mass quitting is the only thing I see that will work.

Yes, I've quit jobs I didn't like before with no job to fall back on. One thing I've found is that income can be found when one is motivated. Risks must be taken in order to attain any appreciable reward.

[ssmynkint]

Mass quitting is the only thing I see that will work.[/quote Again, asking LE to take the hit and willingness for great potential harm to befall the populace until "order" is restored. Only off work 3 days? And you don't trust the electorate?

But I'm interested in your clear implication that our democratic system, such as it is, doesn't work. I recall you advocating a more elitist-lead concept.
And it is always easier for those with resources (education, connections, mobility, being of the proper race and class) to take risks then other demographic groups.

I agree that people often don't care enough (for others, their civic/moral responsibilities, society in general) to really contribute time, energy and resources to address the issues, but the civil rights movement achieved significant gains, I'm often too optimistic, but I want to believe that, with enough education (and demonstrable self-benefit) people will respond.
Rather then ask LEOs to be derelict in their duties, perceived or actual, encourage them to use their courage to make public the facts that are so obscured by our elected officials. Again, tho, in the real world this would entail increased taxes, some of which would be wasted.

[Police Moderator]

'Mass quitting' is illegal in Tennessee for law enforcement officers.

[rstewart]

Jan 16, 2012 16:02:33 GMT -5 ssmynkint said:

Mass quitting is the only thing I see that will work.[/quote Again, asking LE to take the hit and willingness for great potential harm to befall the populace until "order" is restored. Only off work 3 days? And you don't trust the electorate?

But I'm interested in your clear implication that our democratic system, such as it is, doesn't work. I recall you advocating a more elitist-lead concept.
And it is always easier for those with resources (education, connections, mobility, being of the proper race and class) to take risks then other demographic groups.

I agree that people often don't care enough (for others, their civic/moral responsibilities, society in general) to really contribute time, energy and resources to address the issues, but the civil rights movement achieved significant gains, I'm often too optimistic, but I want to believe that, with enough education (and demonstrable self-benefit) people will respond.
Rather then ask LEOs to be derelict in their duties, perceived or actual, encourage them to use their courage to make public the facts that are so obscured by our elected officials. Again, tho, in the real world this would entail increased taxes, MOST of which would be wasted.

Fixed it for you!

And not by the cops, by the politicians. They would take the increased revenue and still not pay the cops more money or hire more cops. They would rather have a Education, Arts, and Culture director or some other similiar, nonsensical position. This is why there is little support for a tax increase. Not because we don't want law and order.

[Justin Thyme]

Jan 16, 2012 16:02:33 GMT -5 ssmynkint said:

Mass quitting is the only thing I see that will work.

Again, asking LE to take the hit and willingness for great potential harm to befall the populace until "order" is restored. Only off work 3 days? And you don't trust the electorate?

I'm asking LE to take the hit because they are the only ones with the power to make this statement. I'm asking them to take the risk because they are the ones that will receive the immediate benefit.

How long do you think Chattanooga would last without a police force?

I trust the local political machine to go load up vans of voters, enticing them with a little walking around money and those voters showing their appreciation with a little loyalty at the polls.

But I'm interested in your clear implication that our democratic system, such as it is, doesn't work. I recall you advocating a more elitist-lead concept.

Elitist? I was suggesting that a voter be able to name the person currently, or most recently, holding the position they would be voting to fill. That ability only requires someone to be aware of what they are voting for, not literacy or anything else. I would think that the only people that would exclude would be corpses. There should only be a problem with that in Chicago.

And it is always easier for those with resources (education, connections, mobility, being of the proper race and class) to take risks then other demographic groups.

I don't know. If you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose. Where's the risk in losing nothing? To take this back to the police, do you believe that promise of a pension won't be broken?

I agree that people often don't care enough (for others, their civic/moral responsibilities, society in general) to really contribute time, energy and resources to address the issues, but the civil rights movement achieved significant gains, I'm often too optimistic, but I want to believe that, with enough education (and demonstrable self-benefit) people will respond.

Twenty years ago I would have agreed with you. Now? I don't see any evidence to back up your optimism.

Rather then ask LEOs to be derelict in their duties, perceived or actual, encourage them to use their courage to make public the facts that are so obscured by our elected officials. Again, tho, in the real world this would entail increased taxes, some of which would be wasted.

They have tried putting up informational pickets at Riverbend, they have written letter after letter in the papers, they have appeared on the news.... what is left? They have to quit.

[Justin Thyme]

Jan 16, 2012 16:17:23 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

'Mass quitting' is illegal in Tennessee for law enforcement officers.

I don't see how that is enforceable. They can't force you to work where you don't want to work. I know a strike is illegal but if you quit, you quit.

[el Gusano]

Justin beat me to every point. And great points they are.

[Police Moderator]

JiT you're recommending everyone who is dissatisfied, quit. That is a work stoppage and illegal. If a significant number quit due to poor working conditions, many would stay.

Those who quit would be charged.

Not worth the risk of quitting, to cut our noses off to spite our collective faces, just to make a point.

You being able to up and quit if your not happy, just means you are very different than us.

How many real lives, fellow employees and those whose services you provided, were placed in real, eminent danger if you quit?

We're bleeding dry just on planned retirements, resignations, for whatever reason, and terminations. An exodus, at the same time by just 10% of us, would be a public safety disaster.

Maybe that's why it's illegal for us to strike?

[ssmynkint]

Whatever our civilian opinions, PM has the bone fides in experience and knowldge.

[Justin Thyme]

Jan 16, 2012 17:23:02 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

JiT you're recommending everyone who is dissatisfied, quit. That is a work stoppage and illegal. If a significant number quit due to poor working conditions, many would stay.

Those who quit would be charged.

If memory serves me correctly the entire Charleston, Tennessee police force quit a few years back. Were they charged? I don't like arguing what the law says with any police officer, and especially you, but quitting, resigning, is not a work stoppage it is a career change. I have to believe you are reading that part of the law incorrectly. If you aren't allowed to quit, resign, then you are a slave and slavery, too, is illegal. If a significant number of you get fed up and quit at the same time I can't see how that could possibly be illegal without making slavery legal again.

If you aren't going to quit then you need to do something that will change things for the better. Follow what ssmynkint suggests and change thing politically for the better. I just haven't seen evidence that you or any other Chattanooga/Hamilton County law enforcement have been able to do that. If you can't do that what can you do other than quit?