It’s Time to End the War on Drugs

[Police Moderator]

It’s Time to End the War on Drugs
by Gov. Gary Johnson

As President I will stop one of the biggest wastes and frauds ever perpetrated on the American people – the trillion dollar war on drugs. While falsely promising us a safer, more sober society, the war on drugs is bankrupting our state and local coffers and costs the Federal government $15 billion dollars per year. That’s five hundred dollars every second – mostly for possession of marijuana, a relatively harmless drug the effects of which are certainly no worse than alcohol, the sale of which is legal and regulated.

Think how many tax cuts we could have with the money we are spending. If you’re a Republican – think how many tax cuts (federal, state and local) could be bought with the money you’re spending to lock people up for something as dangerous as drinking. Think how many poor people could be helped with that money. We need to reform our drug laws as soon as yesterday by stopping the prohibition of marijuana and regulating its sale.

If you think the drug war makes you and your children safer, think again. The International Center for Science in Drug Policy stated: “Drug prohibition likely contributes to drug market violence and higher homicide rates.” But you don’t need to be a scientist, or the governor of a border state, to understand why: the drug war creates violent criminals.

Criminals deal drugs because drugs make them money, a lot of money. When that kind of money is in play, people kill for it. Entire armies of crime have built up on our streets and across the border in Mexico. But we can stop that tomorrow – with drug policy reform. We know that prohibition makes prices higher. Our own history with prohibition proves that. When we make something illegal, we keep the supply artificially low, and that keeps the price artificially high – and that means violence.

Read more: big government

[JC]

"Think how many poor people could be helped with that money."

So... instead of spending money arresting poor drug dealers we'll just give them cash to buy more dope. Brilliant.
Wonder if the cash would be handed out to drug dealers at the time of traffic stops or in the form of more food stamps or cheaper section 8 rent?

[osrb]

Jan 23, 2012 7:10:34 GMT -5 JC said:

"Think how many poor people could be helped with that money."

So... instead of spending money arresting poor drug dealers we'll just give them cash to buy more dope. Brilliant.
Wonder if the cash would be handed out to drug dealers at the time of traffic stops or in the form of more food stamps or cheaper section 8 rent?

Wrong again. If you made it legal you would take it away from dealers. Just like with the repeal of the 18th Amendment took the money out of illegal booz making MJ and other drugs legal would take the money out of street dealing. People would rather go to a store and purchase a known brand with a known content then taking risks with the unknown street dealer. Gary Johnson is 100% correct with his assessment.

Pros to legalize.
1. Control of content
2. less cost
3. more control
4. Less people trying harder stuff
5. Smaller prison population.
6. Courts Not plugged up with users and dealers
7. Tax revenue.

Cons.
1. Less money to private prisons. (oh wait that is a pro).
2. Less money being thrown at government for more laws (oh wait that is a pro).
3. More money can be used for rehab not jails.
4. Less control of government over our private lives.

This is just a sample there are much more pros and cons but the pros win.

[JC]

1) Have no idea what this means. Do you mean that Government will control and regulate weed? Like they do now with tobacco? Yeah, that'll make the cost go down.

2) How so? By adding corporate greed, middle men, stores, government regs, insurance, minimum wage, employment benefits, FDA, etc...?

3) Ok, I'll give you this one. Better weed for the pot heads!

4) Head, meet sand. That is an unsupported and outrageous claim.

5) Because the millions upon millions of people in prisons for dime bags will be let go.
Oh wait...

6) Dealers are criminals and deal for the money. If this plan does work, you really think that they will turn a new leaf and get real jobs?

7) Because drug dealers and stoners are known for paying their taxes and being law abiding citizens.

[Justin Thyme]

JC, if you can give me one valid reason why you should be able to impose your will on me over using drugs I'll move to your side on this argument. I will tell you that I'm as adamant about people smoking cigarettes as you are about people smoking dope but I don't see where I have the right to impose my will on you that you don't smoke cigarettes.

[osrb]

You sound like one of the people who would have protested the repeal prohibition for the same reasons. When prohibition ended hard core drinking declined. Less people were getting sick and killed from bad booz. If there is no money to be made being a street dealer then it will be harder for people to justify going into that racket. How many people get arrested for dealing booz now? How many people still purchase their beer, wine, and whiskey from a store instead of making it? I guess you look at it like better booz for better drunks. Most people who smoke pot will gladly purchase in store for a known brand that they "know" has no extras in it, then purchase of some guy on a street corner. You will never get rid of them all just like you cannot get rid of the moonshiners.

scientificamerican


Alcohol Prohibition Was a Failure

[JC]

JT, See the other threat where we debated the violence associated with drugs. Cigarettes do not cause that kind of crime.
I am all for the whole live and let live thing. Really am. Seat belts, abortion, smoking, blue laws, whatever. Only thing here, I am sick and tired of drug dealers and users taking away from my quality of life each and every day. Once they stop doing that, I will gladly jump ship with the legalize crowd.

osrb, "Less people were getting sick and killed from bad booz."
I'm sure sucking on rat poison and fertilizer will become MUCH safer once it's regulated by the government.

"If there is no money to be made being a street dealer then it will be harder for people to justify going into that racket."
The cost of growing weed is paying someone to plant seeds, bag it and sell it. How do you think this cost will go down by adding corporate greed, middle men, stores, government regs, insurance, commercial rent, minimum wage, employment benefits, FDA, taxes, etc. into the mix?
Once you start legalizing other drugs and manufacturing them, the cost will skyrocket.
Two tooth, brain dead, railer trash will mix and cook chemicals for a few dollars. How much is the American worker and insurance companies gonna charge for doing this?

They are never going to give up their trade. Never. And in the pipe dream where they do stop dealing, do you really think that they will just go to McDonalds for employment? Absolutely not. They will simply move onto other crime for money.

[JC]

I guess this child molester and killer wouldn't have done it had he purchased his dope - which he was high on at the time - from a retail store instead of a street dealer.

sceniccity.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=police&action=display&thread=29219

[wheels]

Jan 23, 2012 13:09:17 GMT -5 JC said:

JT, See the other threat where we debated the violence associated with drugs. Cigarettes do not cause that kind of crime.

if cigarettes were illegal, i do think there would be an increase in crime among cigarette users.

Jan 23, 2012 13:09:17 GMT -5 JC said:

They are never going to give up their trade. Never. And in the pipe dream where they do stop dealing, do you really think that they will just go to McDonalds for employment? Absolutely not. They will simply move onto other crime for money.

what did the booze traffickers do after prohibition ended? i'm inclined to believe that most marijuana users would choose to buy from legal outlets rather than the criminal element. it would be safer and legal. who wants to worry about the cops when there is a legal way to get the stuff?

[wheels]

Jan 23, 2012 13:23:47 GMT -5 JC said:

I guess this child molester and killer wouldn't have done it had he purchased his dope - which he was high on at the time - from a retail store instead of a street dealer.

sceniccity.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=police&action=display&thread=29219

he was a child molester and murderer. i'm pretty sure he had bigger problems than marijuana use.

[JC]

if cigarettes were illegal, i do think there would be an increase in crime among cigarette users.

If steak were illegal, I think there would be an increase in crime among the meat eaters

But, seriously, when was the last time someone was raped, murdered or beaten because of cigarettes? I've ran out of smokes lots of times but it never made me want to kill someone for another (ok, I've come close but the consequences was enough to stop me).
I've smoked thousands of cigarettes but not one of those ever made me wanna rape someone.

I'd opine that we would see an increase in crime if drugs were made legal. The increased cost is gonna cause an increase in crime. People are going to rob and break-in to stores.

[osrb]

The cost of growing weed is paying someone to plant seeds, bag it and sell it. How do you think this cost will go down by adding corporate greed, middle men, stores, government regs, insurance, commercial rent, minimum wage, employment benefits, FDA, taxes, etc. into the mix?

1. Quality you cannot just throw some seeds into the ground and let grow. It takes good soil and monitoring in order to grow just like any other crop.

2. You do not just pick and smoke it must be dried and seeds removed. Not an easy process it is time consuming and difficult.

3. If it was so easy to just grow and smoke why do not people just grow and smoke tobacco products. Just throw some seed on the ground and let grow. wouldn't it be cheaper that we instead of paying taxes, big corporations, and dealing with FDA regs etc..

your argument makes no logical sense. It is done every day with tobacco and alcohol.

[JC]

orsb, 1 and 2 sounds very difficult. Not like no one does that now with home gardens.

I've grown tomatoes at home. I have dried fruit and spices at home. I have picked seeds and stems at home.... It wasn't that difficult, really. And it certainly wasn't rocket surgery.

3, people smoke more cigarettes then weed. People I have known that smokes weed will\would smoke one or two a day. I can easily put away that many with one cup of coffee.
If space to grow wasn't a problem, I'm sure a lot of folks would grow tobacco.

[wheels]

Jan 23, 2012 13:41:11 GMT -5 JC said:

But, seriously, when was the last time someone was raped, murdered or beaten because of cigarettes? I've ran out of smokes lots of times but it never made me want to kill someone for another (ok, I've come close but the consequences was enough to stop me).
I've smoked thousands of cigarettes but not one of those ever made me wanna rape someone.

i've never heard of marijuana causing someone to commit rape. alcohol can definitely be a contributing factor. do you also think alcohol should be illegal?

the fact that a criminal uses marijuana is not an indication that his crimes were caused by marijuana. many criminals smoke cigarettes, but i don't assume that tobacco is a contributing factor in their crimes.

legalizing marijuana will ease prison overpopulation, lower taxpayer costs and speed up the justice system.

[JC]

Jan 23, 2012 13:57:49 GMT -5 wheels said:

Jan 23, 2012 13:41:11 GMT -5 JC said:

But, seriously, when was the last time someone was raped, murdered or beaten because of cigarettes? I've ran out of smokes lots of times but it never made me want to kill someone for another (ok, I've come close but the consequences was enough to stop me).
I've smoked thousands of cigarettes but not one of those ever made me wanna rape someone.

i've never heard of marijuana causing someone to commit rape. alcohol can definitely be a contributing factor. do you also think alcohol should be illegal?

the fact that a criminal uses marijuana is not an indication that his crimes were caused by marijuana. many criminals smoke cigarettes, but i don't assume that tobacco is a contributing factor in their crimes.

Jesus.

They call it "under the influence of drugs" for a reason. And it's not because they are well known for kissing puppies while stoned, either.

[wheels]

Jan 23, 2012 13:57:05 GMT -5 JC said:

orsb, 1 and 2 sounds very difficult. Not like no one does that now with home gardens.

I've grown tomatoes at home. I have dried fruit and spices at home. I have picked seeds and stems at home.... It wasn't that difficult, really. And it certainly wasn't rocket surgery.

3, people smoke more cigarettes then weed. People I have known that smokes weed will\would smoke one or two a day. I can easily put away that many with one cup of coffee.
If space to grow wasn't a problem, I'm sure a lot of folks would grow tobacco.

i think most would still purchase it from legal outlets, just like most purchase their produce from markets and grocery stores.

another thing to consider in this discussion is that most companies that perform random drug tests would likely still prohibit the use of marijuana by their employees.

[wheels]

Jan 23, 2012 14:03:12 GMT -5 JC said:

Jan 23, 2012 13:57:49 GMT -5 wheels said:

i've never heard of marijuana causing someone to commit rape. alcohol can definitely be a contributing factor. do you also think alcohol should be illegal?

the fact that a criminal uses marijuana is not an indication that his crimes were caused by marijuana. many criminals smoke cigarettes, but i don't assume that tobacco is a contributing factor in their crimes.

Jesus.

They call it "under the influence of drugs" for a reason. And it's not because they are well known for kissing puppies while stoned, either.

so do you believe alcohol should be outlawed again? many crimes are committed under the influence of alcohol.

personally, i think that a person's character and morality dictate whether or not he/she will commit a crime. if you're a rapist, you're going to rape whether you have pot in your system or not.

[ssmynkint]

personally, i think that a person's character and morality dictate whether or not he/she will commit a crime

Absolutely.

[LimitedRecourse]

"If you made it legal you would take it away from dealers."

Lie number 1.

"Pros to legalize.
1. Control of content
2. less cost
3. more control
4. Less people trying harder stuff
5. Smaller prison population.
6. Courts Not plugged up with users and dealers
7. Tax revenue."

Lies 2-8.

[LimitedRecourse]

"...if you can give me one valid reason why you should be able to impose your will on me over using drugs I'll move to your side on this argument."

1. Using illicit drugs is against the law.
2. Society is based on common standards of behavior codified into law.
3. If people break laws there is chaos.
4. Chaos is never good for a strong society.

[LimitedRecourse]

"How many people get arrested for dealing booz now?"

The MOON does SHINE often. You ain't from around here, are you?

[LimitedRecourse]

"...when was the last time someone was raped, murdered or beaten because of cigarettes?"

A few years back in CHATTANOOGA, 3 brothers beat and murdered a man for a carton of cigarettes.

Others: www.bing.com/search?q=chattanooga+-+man+killed+over+cigarettes&FORM=HPDTLB&PC=HPDTDF&MKT=en-us

[JC]

pot changes the way minds work...

www.health.harvard.edu/blog/teens-who-smoke-pot-at-risk-for-later-schizophrenia-psychosis-201103071676

www.stateuniversity.com/blog/permalink/Marijuana-Use-Among-College-Students.html

[osrb]

Jan 23, 2012 15:24:02 GMT -5 LimitedRecourse said:

"...if you can give me one valid reason why you should be able to impose your will on me over using drugs I'll move to your side on this argument."

1. Using illicit drugs is against the law.
2. Society is based on common standards of behavior codified into law.
3. If people break laws there is chaos.
4. Chaos is never good for a strong society.

If it was not against the law then these would not apply.

In any position of leadership rule number one is never issue an order that cannot be enforced or no one will obey. The laws prohibiting drugs are just such orders.

The ONLY reason they they were able to pass the laws in the first place were the racist views that blacks were doing these and going out to rape white women. Since these laws are ONLY based on racism they should be abolished.

How is legalization imposing my will on you? If you do not want to use it DON'T. You seem to be OK with imposing your will on others. Telling them what they can do with their bodies and what the cannot do.

[LimitedRecourse]

www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_118453.asp

[LimitedRecourse]

"The ONLY reason they they were able to pass the laws in the first place were the racist views that blacks were doing these and going out to rape white women. Since these laws are ONLY based on racism they should be abolished."

You should sell hamburgers, because that one is a whopper.

[Police Moderator]

Curiously, those asking for less government by legalizing marijuana are simultaneously asking for more government to oversee quality control of 'legal marijuana', more government to monitor/calculate/tax proceeds of 'legal marijuana', more government in "revenuers' to chase down and arrest those who choose not to pay the tax, more government to control the now higher cost of 'legal marijuana', ad infinitum.

The funniest thing is those that believe that any drug dealer is going to willingly share a portion of his profits with the government just so he can be 'legal'.

The street level drug dealer will be able to sell his weed for much cheaper than the government weed. And his weed will be killer red hair, sticky, hydroponic Sensimilla and opposed to the government's highly taxed shake.

If you want to legalize it, vote in people who have the power to legalize it, but don't piss on me and tell me it is just raining.

[Justin Thyme]

JC & LR, I'll get back to you on why you haven't made your case for imposing your will on me at some point this evening. I've got very little time to spare today and I did want to address PM's statement right now.

Jan 23, 2012 16:17:55 GMT -5 Police Moderator said:

Curiously, those asking for less government by legalizing marijuana are simultaneously asking for more government to oversee quality control of 'legal marijuana', more government to monitor/calculate/tax proceeds of 'legal marijuana', more government in "revenuers' to chase down and arrest those who choose not to pay the tax, more government to control the now higher cost of 'legal marijuana', ad infinitum.

I have been very consistent over the years to express my belief that marijuana should be made legal and not taxed. Mostly for the reasons you mentioned above but also because we tax too many things now.

There is no good reason to tax marijuana should it be made legal. Yes it would provide more revenue for the state but the state has plenty of revenue now, it just needs to get spending under control. There would be no need to regulate marijuana should it be made legal. Child cruelty laws already make it illegal for an adult to give an intoxicant to a minor. Animal cruelty laws protect animals in the same way. There are laws against driving impaired so there doesn't need to be separate laws addressing the use of marijuana while driving.

Just make it legal and leave it at that.

[Police Moderator]

Just make it legal and leave it at that.

I am in full agreement with that. Don't demand less government by demanding more government to counter the less government that was already in place.

Sound stupid, ignorant and misguided and circular? It is.

Further, LE is not the entity that controls the legality of anything, no matter our opinion on it. Legalize marijuana and you can be assured that all LE (Even the three on here) will no longer make marijuana arrests despite our personal opinion on it.

Our job is to enforce the laws, as written and adjudicated, by others. It's what we do.

Instead of attacking LE for doing their sworn job, attack those that enact the law(s) and work to change the law(s) you disagree with, for whatever reason. If you can't, or are unable to, change the laws by gaining a simple majority, or electing those that think like you..... that is on you, and your cause.

No skin off my LE back.

[ssmynkint]

Instead of attacking LE for doing their sworn job

Must have missed it. Didn't read an attack on LE.r is everything personal for you?