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Post by Justin Thyme on May 6, 2007 20:08:00 GMT -5
There are some things I believe. - I believe in the Big Bang theory in that the universe exploded into being from a singularity.
- I believe that all life on earth evolved into what it is now from a primordial soup over millions of years.
- I believe that all the universe and all that is in it came into being at the guidance of some kind of intelligence.
- I believe that intelligence is God.
- I believe that along with creating the universe God also created an ideal way of living.
- I believe that the most precious gift God gave us was free will.
- I believe that this ideal way of living is something that you and I can choose to live or we can choose our own way of living.
- I believe that it is God’s will that we choose His ideal way of living.
- I believe that we all are searching for God’s ideal way of living and that this search has manifested itself into all the major religions of the world.
- I believe that God works his Will through all of these religions.
- I believe that Jesus perfectly represented God’s ideal way of living.
- I believe that every religion has been perverted by people trying to use religion to control others.
I posted this on my website a little while back. I thought I'd throw it in here as a little grist for the mill.
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Post by stray on May 6, 2007 20:20:08 GMT -5
Of your talking points, I agree with your first, second, and last points.
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 6, 2007 20:29:16 GMT -5
Well, at least there is some common ground.
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Post by gridbug on May 6, 2007 20:40:06 GMT -5
ain ain soph ain soph aur
Also I agree with 1, 2, and the last. To some extent I agree with what comes in between tempered by the belief that comes first:
Man created God in his own image.
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Post by legaltender on May 6, 2007 22:19:59 GMT -5
Is your "God person" related to Voldemort?
All religion depends on revelation. All revelation is supernatural.
We should be equally upset at evangelist atheists. They are obnoxious. Horrors and good deeds are performed by believers and non-believers alike.
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Dreamwebber
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Post by Dreamwebber on May 6, 2007 23:03:47 GMT -5
I am with Stray....1,2, and last point.
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Bloodhound
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Post by Bloodhound on May 7, 2007 1:12:27 GMT -5
I believe that it's never a good idea to discuss religion. Aside from that, I do not believe in a supreme being or gods and goddesses, but I do believe that nature and the universe itself possess a power that we will never comprehend. I do not assume to know why or how we are here, no do I concern myself with such wondering. I am very comfortable with my belief structure and try to live a good life. I am not perfect, but I do try.
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Felix
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Post by Felix on May 7, 2007 6:04:04 GMT -5
Bloodhound averred: I believe that it's never a good idea to discuss religion.Well, that stipulation would cut out half the discussions in this forum. I agree that in person discussions with friends or family may lead to ruptures in both relationships. That's what is good about message boards. You don't have to see the red fury rising in the faces of your audience as you trample on their beliefs or lack of same. I can agree with all the statements Justin made.
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Post by gridbug on May 7, 2007 6:41:40 GMT -5
Believing in a "creator" does not really answer any questions about the universe. After learning of the Big Bang, one then ends up asking where did the Big Bang come from. If God created the universe then where did he/she/they/it come from? The question of the origin of god(s) can not be ignored if you claim they realli exist.
At least science bases its explanations on reproducible observations and trying to extrapolate from that. To bring a god into any explanations turns it into a he said/she said between different mythologies (all arbitrary and written by [wo]men). Arguing mythologies may be entertaining at times, but do not bring us any closer to any understanding of the universe. At best we might get a better idea of what gods somebody else believes in.
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 7, 2007 8:06:33 GMT -5
Believing in a "creator" does not really answer any questions about the universe. After learning of the Big Bang, one then ends up asking where did the Big Bang come from. If God created the universe then where did he/she/they/it come from? The question of the origin of god(s) can not be ignored if you claim they realli exist. And that is something that I do not ignore. I wonder about this often. Believe me, though, if the afterlife does end up being one long rap session with God that will be one of the questions that I ask Him. I also won't be surprised if He tells me He has a team of scientists working to find the answer to this question. At least science bases its explanations on reproducible observations and trying to extrapolate from that. To bring a god into any explanations turns it into a he said/she said between different mythologies (all arbitrary and written by [wo]men). Arguing mythologies may be entertaining at times, but do not bring us any closer to any understanding of the universe. At best we might get a better idea of what gods somebody else believes in. But I don't view science and religion as being competing, diametrically opposed belief systems. I view them as complementing each other. Science has done a superb job of answering the "how" questions of the universe. Science tells us how life began how stars were formed, how the cells of our body work together and on and on. Science still leaves us without answers to the whys. Why are we here? Why do people do the evil things that they do? These are questions that religion helps us answer.
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Post by gridbug on May 7, 2007 8:35:45 GMT -5
Science and religion are only competing belief systems to those that can not accept alternatives to their superstitions, like the young earthers/KJVO/fundie nutbars/whatever you want to call them.
Not much of a competition though. From the POV of science a 6000 year old universe is just silly and from the POV of the fundamentalists anyone who is not them is just plain doomed to hell.
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Post by daworm on May 7, 2007 8:38:34 GMT -5
The rationale I've heard is simple "God is." God had no beginning, God has no end. Philosophically, I have no problem with that. Much like the universe we live in, where the value of several constants, if any were adjusted a tiny amount one way or the other, would result in a different universe which would not support life as we know it, a universe which requires an ever present God isn't too difficult to imagine. However, in such a universe, I have a hard time grasping what such a God would want to directly impact the lives of any of the people living in that universe.
I rarely concern myself with the bacteria in my toilet bowl, but once in a while I may drop some TidyBowl in it. Perhaps in such a universe that requires an eternal God, God is like that. He's going on about his routine and some of his subjects get a bounty (he dropped the toast onto the floor - food for all) and some get wiped out (time to mop the floor) and He doesn't know or doesn't care. He built His house and is trying to keep it tidy, that's all.
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 8:48:37 GMT -5
Science and religion are only competing belief systems to those that can not accept alternatives to their superstitions, like the young earthers/KJVO/fundie nutbars/whatever you want to call them. Not much of a competition though. From the POV of science a 6000 year old universe is just silly and from the POV of the fundamentalists anyone who is not them is just plain doomed to hell. OMG LOL ITS CUZ A DAY IN GOD TIME IS LIKE A MILLION YEARS LOL OMG
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 7, 2007 9:56:58 GMT -5
Actually, I can appreciate the science behind this. With God being omnipresent he must be zipping around the universe at an incredible rate of speed. Einstein theorized that as an objects velocity approaches the speed of light time slows to a stop relative to the time of (relatively) stationary objects. That would explain why a million years to us is like a day to God.
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Post by daworm on May 7, 2007 10:06:38 GMT -5
In geological time, you have the Hadean, Archean, Proterozoic, Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and Cenozoic periods. Each of these could be a day for God. That would make today the seventh period, in which case God is still resting and not bothering with us for a bit.
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 10:07:44 GMT -5
Einstein also postulated that as an object approaches light speed, the amount of energy required to accelerate increases exponentially as does its mass.
...or, does 'god' conveniently say 'fuck all' to the laws of physics?
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Post by gridbug on May 7, 2007 10:09:25 GMT -5
The same thing used to be said about the universe, but it certainly looks like the universe had a beginning. Saying god has no beginning or end is just weaseling out of a question you don't have an answer to.
Maybe, but without the bacteria in your intestines you would starve pretty quickly, whether or not you concern yourself with them.
With philospphy & religion it is so easy to just overlook the little details that do not fit what you want to see. It may be entertaining but it does not answer any great questions or enlighten us. Because it lacks roots in reality theology is only mental masturbation.
Science is based in observations of the universe, what we can learn from them, and what we can construe from what we learn.
A theologist can deny gravity all day, but he still can't fly (without tools that came from science).
"All-knowing" and can't even read a watch? Bah!
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 10:16:28 GMT -5
This meshes quite nicely with my theory that god survives by eating the souls of the weak.
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Post by gridbug on May 7, 2007 10:24:30 GMT -5
Not weak, just souls. We are all bacteria to him/her/them/it.
Your theory won't keep your soul from being eaten too. On a bagel with lox no less.
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Dreamwebber
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Post by Dreamwebber on May 7, 2007 10:26:30 GMT -5
I agree with DaWorm on that. I do believe in God....I just can't believe that God should be held responsible for everything that happens to you and your life (predestiny). If a tornado comes through and destroys everything you own for ex except you...I don't understand people who feel blessed by God for this...I don't think God would personally have you lose everything you own. Nature happened there...but, maybe that is just me.
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 10:28:08 GMT -5
I refuse to be eaten on a 'jew biscuit.' God or no god.
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Post by gridbug on May 7, 2007 12:41:40 GMT -5
Sorry Stray Some things you believe And some things you just don't get a choice...
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RuneDeer
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Post by RuneDeer on May 7, 2007 17:50:13 GMT -5
Not to cause offense, and this is just me, ok? But having been all over the theological map in the course of my lifetime, I can assert that during the times I was "religious," I made more bad decisions with long-reaching consequences than at any time when I was in "neutral." The Bible cautions against relying on our own judgment, but life (mine) makes a lot more sense when I rely on a combination of my own judgment and that of others around me, than on a being that requires 50+ books (more if you count the Gnostic gospels, the Apocrypha, the Talmud and anything else you can throw in) and STILL can't make a good, solid point.
When I die? The lights will go out, the TV will go off, and I will finally get some decent sleep!
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 7, 2007 19:30:34 GMT -5
Einstein also postulated that as an object approaches light speed, the amount of energy required to accelerate increases exponentially as does its mass. ...or, does 'god' conveniently say 'fuck all' to the laws of physics? Since God would never utter the phrase 'fuck all' and since God would never break the law let's see how Einstein's other postulate actually plays out. You claim God doesn't exist therefore He can have no mass so his mass can increase exponentially and it will still remain at zero. Also an object with no mass requires no energy to accelerate. If the nature of God is, as you suggest, that He doesn't exist his jetsetting around the universe at the speed of light or faster wouldn't break any of the laws of physics and a day would be as a million years to Him. My belief is that Jesus is God and in John 14:6 Jesus tells us that He is the light. Light is made up of photons and has no mass so once again we have no problem with the laws of physics.
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 20:13:17 GMT -5
Well....reading from the autobiography of Ron Jeremy - Chapter 12, page 223 and 224, paragraphs 6 and 7:
" But I had other things to worry about. I wasn't just doing a sex scene today; I was doing an anal scene. Well, if I was going to break my own law, I might as well go all the way and give Heather [Graham] something she wouldn't soon forget. My partner was a porn vet named Cortnee, and this was far from her first anal scene. I was thankful for at least that much. It would've been far worse if I'd been breaking in a new actress. A first-time anal is not pleasant for anyone. Tensions are high, and neither person enjoys the experience very much. But even so, I'm something of an anal sex aficionado -- an analinguist, if you will--and I pride myself on putting the most inexperienced woman at ease."
Now...my book is infinitely more interesting than your book...both involve powerful superhuman creatures....and neither go a single millimeter towards explaining the finer points of relativity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2007 20:20:38 GMT -5
Stray, you're really slipping. I see your karma dropping and dropping and dropping. You must have really irritated somebody.
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osrb
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Post by osrb on May 7, 2007 21:15:11 GMT -5
I was raised in the largest crime organization in the world (The Catholic Church). Responsible for more mass murder than any other group (the Muslims are catching up fast though). When I woke up and realized there is no omnipresent invisible deity that controls my life I do. If there is a god where is he/she/it? I have traveled around the world and have not found him/her/it anywhere. I have met ppl who claim to know what god thinks but they have never actually talked to him/her/it. If this god existed why allow the suffering on this dirt ball that we call home? Why does he/she/it not show their self so we can have peace on earth?
just my $.02
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 21:29:19 GMT -5
Bah...karma is a great wheel. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're getting ground under the treads.
(In other words, Stray cares not. He knows he is universally loved and hated. He is the Alpha and the Omega....the Yin and the Yang...the Cagney and the Lacey.)
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 7, 2007 21:35:28 GMT -5
This little thing called "free will" sort of gets in the way of God stopping all the suffering.
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 21:38:30 GMT -5
Why?
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