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Post by Justin Thyme on May 7, 2007 21:45:23 GMT -5
The suffering in the world is caused by choices we humans make. The only way to stop the suffering is to put restrictions on the choices. Doing that does away with free will.
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Post by legaltender on May 7, 2007 21:47:53 GMT -5
My belief is that Jesus is God and in John 14:6 Jesus tells us that He is the light. Light is made up of photons and has no mass so once again we have no problem with the laws of physics. I wouldn't take the approach that one's disbelief is a result of buying into the “lies of science” when the real reasons are largely philosophical. www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhsMKQF1ROE&mode=related&search=
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 21:57:12 GMT -5
The suffering in the world is caused by choices we humans make. The only way to stop the suffering is to put restrictions on the choices. Doing that does away with free will. If there is a god, then it WANTS us to suffer. Going 'by the book,' back when there were only two of us, it built in a mechanism to cause pain and suffering. It also built in the mechanism for us to disobey. It also built in the mechanism for an otherworldly enabler. It also proved it is an asshole by punishing the original two of us for following the script that IT created... Or...if you prefer...'by the book' we were created in its image. It decided that we were 'good.' We fucked up...meaning we had an inherent flaw...and since we were created in its image, it also means IT is flawed...which means it can't exist if it is supposed to be flawless. Religion is awesome until you start chucking logic at it...
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osrb
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Post by osrb on May 7, 2007 22:08:41 GMT -5
Free Will does not explain why good people who never hurt anybody gets cancer and suffers greatly until they die of it . It may explain some of the horrible things in life but not all. Face it there is no god.
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Post by stray on May 7, 2007 22:14:31 GMT -5
Actually, there are two possibilities:
1) There is no god. 2) There is a god...and it gets off on playing with us like toys until it's bored and then throws us away like a discarded doll at the bottom of a toybox...it's a spoiled child that appreciates nothing and has its every whim fulfilled. It throws tantrums and rejoices in the chaos that ensues when it kicks over our little anthills.
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Longshot! [ Saint ]
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Post by Longshot! [ Saint ] on May 8, 2007 2:56:07 GMT -5
I feel I have seen fairly repeatedly and fairly consistently that there is rarely 'coincidence' in the world I live and work in. This contradicts my 'angry youth' opinion of this world being a random act of a random act, coincidence reigning all with no God to even be dead, and that people that believe in such were simply 'full of shit'. With age and experience has come a modicum of wisdom, and in this case it is the fact that I am no one to judge what someone chooses to believe. I 'judge' things for a living, but only actions and intent. Not belief systems. That is to say...that people who refer to others as 'full of shit' tend to be 'full of shit' themselves--simply unaware of such. In my case--I am fully aware. But I digress.
I have a hard time labeling it, but again...I see what I consider undeniable patterns that transcend coincidence, and more importantly? I have on two distinct occasions felt what I can label as nothing other than 'evil' inside someone. I remember the temperature, level and direction of light, what clothing everyone had on...everything about it. That was actually my final answer to 'The' internal question we all (non-coincidentally) have, when I reflect upon it.
My senses keep me alive. From not soiling myself to feeding myself to keeping myself warm to reaching out to my left in a dark building without turning my head and grasping and twisting a pistol that was aimed directly at my head out of someone's hand by pure reflex--I trust them. On the non-mortal side, I deal with liars and deviants and can pretty accurately tell when someone is lying 2 times out of 5 (one of the two being myself, the other being an even more successful occasional sociopath, for the curious)... So again, I trust my senses. And, as mentioned, I have felt the presence of pure, unadulterated 'evil' (for lack of a better word) that went beyond appearance and even actions. Because I believe it was real--practically tangible--I consider it a piece of credible evidence of something outside of my day to day mortal workings.
Which religion is the 'winner'? Are any? I don't know. That doesn't concern me, really, but the fact that people separated globally all feel the innate urge to 'worship' something higher is not just a coincidence either--though I once wrote it off as a cheap excuse to answer baffling questions. I just believe that things tend to unfold as they should and are redirected by free-will here and there, and the bottom line is that we know on a core level DAMN GOOD AND WELL what we are supposed to do, and not do, and the path is left to us.
Vanity, the accumulation of wealth, the car you drive and the threads you wear and the toys you have...it's all crap. Meaningless pursuits that allow us to be distracted by comforts that, again, 'don't mean a shit'. Oh, I have them--the toys, the poor habits...but I believe I am aware of what really is important, and when I am and am not doing such. Which all leads me in my usual drawn out fashion to state that, based on perceptions--ironically, ones concerning 'evil'--that there is Something out there beyond this physical plane that Yoda, by George (Lucas), was correct in calling 'crude matter'.
I personally think this plane is a training ground, a classroom. But I don't know who's name is on the building or the name of the teacher.
...But if 'evil' is as real to me as the monitor I'm staring at, then that is sufficient evidence.
And that is my Religion.
(People.)
I have seen some of the best of it, and some of the worst of it. And what I have seen and even done...is not a coincidence.
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Felix
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Post by Felix on May 8, 2007 7:35:14 GMT -5
What Shot! has just posted pretty much accords with Justin's list, somewhat more reserved in the details, but I can agree with both of them. As far the question of evil happening to the innocent, posed by osrb, this is a huge subject, which troubles me greatly. Theologians give it a name, " Theodicy," which my errant synapses repeatedly associate with "the idiocy of Theos (aka God)." So far no lightning has struck me for this impious thought. The Book of Job in the Old Testament addresses this question with a long debate between the suffering Job and his would-be comforters. These unhelpful friends basically want him to admit he deserves his suffering, because God would not so torture a righteous man. Job repudiates this idea, but does not criticize God. Job's wife tells him to "curse God and die" to end his suffering, but he does not do that. Interpreting Job is a daunting task, but the exchange between Job and the voice of God coming from within a whirlwind is itself the core of the book. I have no answer myself, being still conflicted. But reading Job helps in some way. Probably by putting the question in theoretical terms, rather than in concrete examples of horrible suffering.
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Post by daworm on May 8, 2007 7:40:20 GMT -5
There's free will, and then there's free will. Imagine people on a checkerboard, free to move about as they please. Now imagine that checkerboard tilted at 45 degrees. People on that checkerboard could still move about as they please, but it is a lot harder to go in one direction than it is in another. If God exists, He put us on the tilted checkerboard, with Hell at the bottom and Heaven at the top. In other words, He rigged the game, and not in our favor. We could have had just as much free will as we do now, only with Heaven on the bottom, but He didn't. Doesn't say a lot for God, does it?
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Post by stray on May 8, 2007 7:54:08 GMT -5
I believe that there's neither good nor evil, but a morality system that's run by a combination of personal perception and public opinion.
If you take the whole 'peer pressure' and 'man's need to conform and 'fit in'' out of the equation, the entire house of cards would fall.
The -only- thing that really keeps society in line is that the vast majority of folks want to wear one label instead of another.
Actions that, in one circumstance would be criminal, are perfectly accepted in another...based on the court of public opinion and what side of the fence you're on.
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 8, 2007 20:57:12 GMT -5
Free Will does not explain why good people who never hurt anybody gets cancer and suffers greatly until they die of it . We don't live our lives without consequences to others. My actions and decisions will affect others and their's me. We are looking at cancer often being caused by manmade pollutants introduced into our environment. We look at wars often cause by our empowering the wrong people. So, yes, free will does explain why good people who never hurt anybody get cancer and suffer greatly.
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Longshot! [ Saint ]
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Post by Longshot! [ Saint ] on May 9, 2007 9:47:58 GMT -5
I do not believe the checkerboard is tilted unevenly; I believe that the 'shittier choices' simply tend to be the 'easier' or 'more physically desireable' ones. Hence the lower gravity.
I DO believe in 'Good' & 'Evil', not because I believe in 'Good'--I hope and assume it exists--but because I have been, I believe, in the undeniable presence of what I consider to be the definition of 'Evil', and would do good spending the rest of my life trying to forget exactly what that literal sensation feels like. There is not a word to describe the taint it has left on my being. It was as tangible as the keyboard I type on, and if Evil exists--it lends credence towards 'Good'. Logical, though skirting the concept.
But we all seem to agree on Free Will. At least there is that.
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Post by gridbug on May 9, 2007 11:46:34 GMT -5
We are destined to believe in free will...
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Jay
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Post by Jay on May 12, 2007 1:10:11 GMT -5
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"
~The uneven checkerboard doesn't involve just God.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." ~God
I believe in science and God. When I see the infinite beauty, greatness, and immensity in the universe, I can't help but believe in God. When I see my daughter smiling up at me, I know there is a God.
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Post by stray on May 12, 2007 8:00:23 GMT -5
I believe that Jay's existence is further proof why there is no god as defined in the bible.
In his image? Nigga please.
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Post by tcrashfx on May 12, 2007 8:09:52 GMT -5
I believe that there is an evil; therefore, there must be a good.
Evil................ I have seen the dude.
Any morality system has good and bad components or it wouldn't be a system.
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Post by daworm on May 14, 2007 13:40:49 GMT -5
I believe horehound candy is the bee's knees.
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Post by karyotic on May 15, 2007 10:29:59 GMT -5
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Post by gridbug on May 15, 2007 11:44:58 GMT -5
Horehound RULES!
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Jay
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Post by Jay on May 16, 2007 22:34:08 GMT -5
I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky
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Post by stray on May 16, 2007 22:35:58 GMT -5
Yeah! Me too! I wanna fly! LOL!
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Post by gridbug on May 17, 2007 8:16:58 GMT -5
Believe you can fly all you want.
But if you try, gravity will win.
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Post by alphacelt on May 17, 2007 15:27:50 GMT -5
Extreme rant follows:
<rant> You know, I detest these kinds of "debates". Mostly because it always consists of people of one opinion trying to defend/explain/justify/glorify/deny their own or condemn/belittle/putdown/deny some one elses.
I detest seeing those who support science abandoning the scientific method in defense of science and denial of anything and everything they can not fit into a theory. This just shows their limitations.
I detest seeing the religious attempt to rationalize and justify their beliefs in ways that their small minds can comprehend and in so doing destroy all that they profess to believe in.
Omnipresent - He wouldn't have to "zip around" anywhere. He's already there.
Reality - yeah, just go ahead and try to define that one.
This is a perfect example of mental masturbation. An attempt to adapt "laws" of physics with a human conception of deity is simply ... fuck. Fuck trash. Nothing more.
Christians have done more damage to Christianity than any other force will ever do. Any statement in any way shape or form that insists or implies that the speaker knows the mind of, the intention of, the capabilities of, and the limitations of the Christian God are misguided.
Narrow minded scientists are forever a thorn in the side of progress and shame themselves any time they have to resort to the arguments "I simply don't believe that" or "I simply can't accept that".
When we die we'll find out what comes next. How we live our lives while we're here is a choice. A choice for each person. If you think that how you live now has an impact on what happens when you "die", then do something about it.
But go fuck yourself if you think you "know how people should live". And if, as a "scientist" you think you have what it takes to disprove religions, then you are fucked as well.
I will say I have more respect for those individuals who at least will tell you what they do or do not believe, even if I think they are lost or wrong. Who knows? Maybe they're right. I detest those fucks who have never seriously considered questions about the meaning of life, the existence or non-existence of God, ghod, or any deities. </rant>
AC
Tin foil hats and accordions are cool. God thinks so and Einstein proved it.
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 17, 2007 22:15:13 GMT -5
Actually that was an attempt to inject a little levity. I can't be serious all the time but I'll try to do better.
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Post by alphacelt on May 18, 2007 7:14:19 GMT -5
And you know what? You did a good job and I was the one who wasn't paying attention. Although the above is how I feel and a touch of what I believe, I really had no appropriate reason to post it here. It says, "Thick skin required" on the door and I just ignored that and walked right in to post my rant. I would welcome discussing these issues any time in a relaxed and friendly atmosphere. But until then I think I'll try to refrain from butting in on other people's threads. AC Edited to say: in this room at least!
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Post by gridbug on May 18, 2007 7:31:30 GMT -5
<levity> Oh yeah? Well, Jesus told me you suck </levity>
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Post by Justin Thyme on May 18, 2007 7:40:26 GMT -5
AC, if people don't butt in who will there be to talk to?
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Felix
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Post by Felix on May 18, 2007 8:18:20 GMT -5
What Justin said. Opinions on religion and politics tend to be strongly held and contrary opinons consequently stir the pot, with energetic results.
That is the purpose of this forum, as I understand it. As long as the discussions do not lapse into personal attacks, things remain interesting without being unduly offensive.
Rant on, brethern and sistern.
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Post by stray on May 18, 2007 9:15:02 GMT -5
It's also been my findings that it's quite a masterbatory action... People aren't going to change their opinions a single degree on the 'religion' issue by reading some bullshit posted on a messageboard. Folks will vent their colons...vent some more...and nothing really will ever get accomplished.
(Come to think of it, that's kind of the description of 'messageboard' in the first place...so...never mind.)
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Felix
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Post by Felix on May 18, 2007 10:05:09 GMT -5
Stray, commenting on the relative triviality importance of religious debate, said: ...that's kind of the description of 'messageboard' in the first place...But, but, but...you mean, it doesn't matter what we post? OMG don't tell the trolls .
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Post by gridbug on May 18, 2007 10:17:52 GMT -5
Then let me rub out another argument:
It does not matter what you post unless you are a troll!
Ah! Much better. Anyone got a tissue?
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