What do poor people do?

[JC]

Jul 29, 2011 23:04:45 GMT -5 el Gusano said:

There are also many doctors who will waive fees

This is true. Doctors will often waive co-payments. In my experience it's best to ask after the fact. The old adage, it's easier to ask forgiveness then permission applies.
My neurosurgeon waived all of my debt with her with no more then a 30 second message (IF it took that long) left with her receptionist.

Only problem is it's more then likely that the
deductible will be split up between several billable services. The hospital, the doctors, the surgeons, medical equipment and even some nurses will all be billed separately by 3rd parties.
And these bills are near impossible to get written off (ask me how i know).
So even though your doctor and surgeon may write off a couple hundred dollars of co-payments, you're still stuck with the rest.

[ssmynkint]

Great Beckian response, Grid!

[Bob]

I'm good with heated conversation, its school yard name calling I will delete.

[daworm]

Talking about what they should have done doesn't help them in finding help to do what must be done now.

They go to the hospital, they get the gall bladder out, and presumably they go bankrupt when they can't pay the bill, or they work out something with the hospital who would rather get something than nothing.

You are not forced to pay any tax.

Hmmm, you try it and see how well that works out for you.

Anyone who chooses to believe an ancient book instead of modern technology is an idiot that is incapable of rational self-thought.

I have two things to say about that... One, I don't believe in that ancient book either, but I do believe in some of the lessons it teaches. Two, just because something is ancient doesn't make it wrong. Is Algebra somehow wrong since it was first written about by some Muslim centuries ago?

I'll hijack a comment...

People like gus feel that money is more important then his brothers' lives...

You completely (probably intentionally) miss the point. The point has nothing to do with money versus lives, it is entirely to do with responsibility. Who is responsible for the health care of someone who could have, but chose not to, prepare themselves for large medical expenses? And just about everybody can do that. You seem to think that the government, and via the taxes that we all must pay, the taxpayers, should be the first line of payment. Myself, and I believe I can include Gus in this statement, feel that the individual should be the first line of payment, and the government should be the last line. The way the system is now, there is no penalty for not having adequate health coverage. You can't pay, so what? You bankrupt, and a few years later (during which you can't get credit, which in the given scenario isn't much of a hardship because likely you couldn't beforehand anyway) and there you are, right back where you started from. If you have little to lose to begin with, what harm is done? It is when you start to actually accumulate some measure of wealth that protecting it becomes important, but if the Liberals had their way, the taxpayers would pick up the tab for that too. But why should they? Should the government pay our auto insurance? Should it pay our homeowners or renters insurance? Should it pay our life insurance? Then why should it pay our health insurance? Right now, the only valid reason I hear is that by paying for basic levels of preventative care, the cost of overall care can be lowered since conditions can be avoided or diagnosed early when it is cheaper to treat. But this only is a valid argument when it is the government that is having to foot the bill later. Much like things like seat belt laws. There would be no reason for the government to mandate someone wear a seat belt if the government wasn't having to foot the bills for all the people who were almost but not quite killed in car wrecks.

The government, via collective wisdom and the dilution of extreme views (or at least that's how it is supposed to work) is supposed to be able to make better decisions for us than we can make as individuals. It is supposed to be the parent, who allows us to grow and express ourselves, but is able to be firm with the discipline when need be. No (good) parent will allow their child to eat all the sweets they want, or buy everything they see in the store. But that's what the government is doing now. People say "I want this" and "I want that" and the government bends over backwards to give it to them, damn the costs, and damn whether it actually good for them, whether it actually helps them grow as a people, much less as individuals.

Is there a role for government in health care? Sure, but as a last line of defense, not as a first provider.

[JC]

Aug 2, 2011 17:34:09 GMT -5 daworm said:

You completely (probably intentionally) miss the point. The point has nothing to do with money versus lives, it is entirely to do with responsibility.

No, I did not miss your point. I was addressing gus's post specifically, ergo mentioning his name and not yours. Gus said himself that it was about "stealing money from him" [ <paraphrasing].

To address you now; You're looking at it a bit simple minded. See, not everyone has the resources, time, money, or the desire to attend college or other higher education. Maybe they are from a poor family. Maybe they have kids. Maybe they have to take care of sick family members. Maybe they choose to enter a skilled trade or start their own small business.
If everyone went to college to get that learnin' that will land them a great job with great benefits, then who would work on your car? Who would fix your toilet? Who will watch your kids in daycare? Who will flip your burgers? Who will assemble your 100% made in America BBQ grill or motorcycle?
It takes all kinds to make the world go round, yano.

Or, maybe someone has a great job but the job offers poor or no insurance. Maybe someone with great insurance has exhausted all of their benefits or they have a pre-existing condition. Maybe someone looses their job all together. Maybe someone retired from a blue-collar job that offers no retirement package. Maybe someone wrecks a motorcycle and is forced out of their great job because of their injuries ( I don't think I'm the only one on this board this happened to, is it? ).
There's millions of examples that I could keep listing, but I think you get the point.
These people are the majority of the "irresponsible" that you speak of. However, these people are not irresponsible. They simply have no other options.

It sounds nice to say that it's all about personal responsibility, but in reality, it has nothing to do with that when it comes to health care many times. When it comes down to it, it's all about the money.
Like it or not, that's how it is.



Signed, JC - the man with $millions of medical debt that had "great medical insurance" - Strick

[mikeydokey]

Anyone who chooses to believe an ancient book instead of modern technology is an idiot that isincapable of rational self-thought. I know that's harsh to say and will piss off gus, and many others, but it's the truth, like it or not.

Only in your opinion.

[el Gusano]

Aug 2, 2011 6:50:57 GMT -5 @gridbug said:

Coveting is the foundation of capitalism. Coveting what your neighbor has is what drives you to work and get your own.

You have one thing in common with fundamentalists. Who'dathunk it?

They also have the same bizarre view of coveting.

Coveting is wanting something that rightfully belongs to someone else. Hence, it says you are not to covet your neighbor's wife and doesn't say that you're not to find your own wife.

Making a profit for you employers is shown to be a good thing and those who do so are rewarded. It's their own money. They earned it.

When the soldiers came to Jesus and said what do we do now? He didn't tell them to throw down their swords and quit the army, he told them to quit extorting money.

When our own government steals from the producers, it's no wonder that crime is so rampant.

Aug 2, 2011 21:27:52 GMT -5 JC said:

No, I did not miss your point. I was addressing gus's post specifically, ergo mentioning his name and not yours. Gus said himself that it was about "stealing money from him" [ <paraphrasing]

That's not paraphrasing, that's twisting words to mean something entirely different, which in not-so-polite company would be called "lying".

I'm against stealing from everyone, not just me. It's just as wrong to steal $1 from the wino on the corner as it is to steal $1 from Bill Gates.

I'm all about giving freely, but I'm also against taking from someone something that is rightfully theirs and using force to do it. That's called "theft" in nicer circles and "extortion" in reality.

And I've had hospital bills with no insurance.

[daworm]

See, not everyone has the resources, time, money, or the desire to attend college or other higher education. Maybe they are from a poor family. Maybe they have kids. Maybe they have to take care of sick family members. Maybe they choose to enter a skilled trade or start their own small business.

Well, as to having no desire to attend, that's their choice, and those who learn a skilled trade or start their own small business aren't likely to be the ones in the situation described. Those that have kids when not financially secure enough should not have and are paying one of the prices for doing so. Not that I have anything against kids, wish I had one or two myself.

It sounds nice to say that it's all about personal responsibility, but in reality, it has nothing to do with that when it comes to health care many times. When it comes down to it, it's all about the money.

Sure, and bad things do happen to good people. And that is where the government has a role. But, I still don't think that government should be the primary provider of health care and/or health insurance. And that's what all this talk about Universal Coverage is about, making the government the first line of defense and not the last.

...I haven't found your mythological books enlightening or interesting enough to have read much of.

So you're putting it down without having read it? I've read it cover to cover four or five times (but not in recent years). Know your enemy and all that, I guess.

[pompey]

And that's what all this talk about Universal Coverage is about, making the government the first line of defense and not the last.

That is simply a fiction. Where do you get this misinformation?

[el Gusano]

Aug 8, 2011 17:34:19 GMT -5 daworm said:

So you're putting it down without having read it? I've read it cover to cover four or five times (but not in recent years). Know your enemy and all that, I guess.

Funnily, people such as astrophysicist Hugh Ross read it to get a laugh out of the "myths", and several hours later, he finished reading chapter one and said, "Whoever wrote this knew what he was talking about".

Of course, most Christian preachers no longer read what it says, but read what someone else says it says.

[pompey]

Funnily, people such as astrophysicist Hugh Ross read it to get a laugh out of the "myths", and several hours later, he finished reading chapter one and said, "Whoever wrote this knew what he was talking about".

Some people react that way. Others see it as a hodgepodge collection of disjointed fairy tales. Everyone has their own taste in literature.

[Scarlet&Gray]

Which part of "thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt not covet" is so difficult for you to understand, "man"?

That's a fairy Tale. If God was real we wouldn't need healthcare he heals the sick, In fact if you take an aspirin you're an atheist. God heals or does the doctor heal, tou tell me. Do you buckle up? You're an atheist the good lord protects you why buckle up.

[Scarlet&Gray]

There are also many doctors who will waive fees,

Got a link for that Gus. Show me a list where Dr. waives a fee. Do you waive the fee when you deliver papers? No one works for free.

[el Gusano]

I've had them waived for me.

I've also had some reduced because I was paying cash.

There are doctors who set up free clinics. (Although the government doesn't like that.)

There are doctors who have tried to set up a flat rate clinic, but the government didn't like that and shut them down because that's considered insurance in the world of governmental red tape.

[el Gusano]

Aug 9, 2011 0:14:41 GMT -5 Scarlet&Gray said:

he heals the sick

Got a chapter and verse in which he promises miraculous healing for anyone and everyone?

To the contrary, because of mans' free will, he is subject to the same physical laws as the rest of creation.

Although God still chooses to work miraculously in some cases.

[Scarlet&Gray]

To the contrary, because of mans' free will, he is subject to the same physical laws as the rest of creation.

So we do need aspirins and seatbelts?

[Dreamwebber]

Have a car wash fundraiser...that's what HS kids do for just about everything

[Justin Thyme]

Yoda, I'm interested in how this has played out so far. Has the person needing treatment gotten it?

[Deleted]

I haven't heard anything for a while but will let you know if/when I do. Thanks for your interest.

[gridbug]

Silly peasants - they should not have chosen to be poor.

[BlackFox]

Aug 8, 2011 23:14:43 GMT -5 pompey said:

Some people react that way. Others see it as a hodgepodge collection of disjointed fairy tales. Everyone has their own taste in literature.

If you've never read the Amazon.com reviews of the Bible, you really should.

www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-King-James-Version/product-reviews/0529064634/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

[Scarlet&Gray]

Coveting is wanting something that rightfully belongs to someone else.

I want a Million Dollars. who doesn't, how's that bad.

[Scarlet&Gray]

I've had them waived for me.

So you stole a Dr's fee you coveted care from a Dr.