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Post by CMF Newsman on Jul 21, 2012 8:17:17 GMT -5
WASHINGTON — Unsurprisingly, the Aurora, Colo., mass shooting has reignited a debate over whether tougher gun laws are needed. But congressional legislation is a long shot, especially in an election year. Gun-control legislation is likely to be introduced again, as it was after other high-profile shootings, such as those at Columbine High School in 1999 and Virginia Tech in 2007. But even gun-control advocates acknowledge they face a tough climb. Many Democrats have shied away from the issue since 2000, when losing presidential candidate Al Gore’s advocacy of gun control is believed to have cost him support in rural states. When asked about prospects for gun-control legislation, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said Friday, “I don’t believe it has a chance in this environment.” But Feinstein, a leading gun-control advocate who sponsored the federal assault weapons ban that Congress let lapse in 2004, did add: “Americans really have to begin to show some outrage at this.” www.bendbulletin.com/article/20120721/NEWS0107/207210365/
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 23, 2012 15:47:56 GMT -5
One law abiding armed citizen could have stopped this massacre.
Oh, wait, they were in a gun free zone.
How are those anti-gun laws working so far?
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Post by Warkitty on Jul 23, 2012 16:35:10 GMT -5
About as well as trickle down economics, why?
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 23, 2012 16:41:37 GMT -5
There is no such thing as trickle down economics. That is a figment of liberals' crazed imaginations.
But there are plenty of gun control laws. And none of them work. (Well, they ALL work, but to the favor of the progressives and other criminals.)
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jul 23, 2012 17:27:19 GMT -5
One law abiding armed citizen could have stopped this massacre. Oh, wait, they were in a gun free zone. How are those anti-gun laws working so far? Yes, taking down a heavily armed and armored crazed gunman in a dark, gas filled theater with panicked delirious people running around screaming is exactly the same as shooting beer cans off a fence post.
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goomba
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Post by goomba on Jul 23, 2012 17:50:09 GMT -5
having a handgun permit and having the proper mindset, training & skills to use are two completely different things.
of the reports that I have read, there were at least four or five people hiding so close to the shooter that the spent brass was falling on them. If they had dog piled him they would have been able to stop them. I think it is more about how pussified we as a society are.
a gun is a tool, only a tool. if you do not have the proper mindset a gun is not going to help you. If you have a permit, get off your ass, take a class & develop the mindset that will allow you to defend yourself and your loved ones.
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 23, 2012 21:38:41 GMT -5
I am all for protecting our 2nd amendment rights but why on earth does anyone need an assault rifle, armor piercing bullets and a 100 round magazine ? I would think the law enforcement professionals would love to see these items banned and taken off the streets. For a supposedly civilized country we sure do love our hi powered, hi velocity weapons which puzzles the crap out of me !
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JC
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Post by JC on Jul 23, 2012 22:07:41 GMT -5
I am all for protecting our 2nd amendment rights but why on earth does anyone need an assault rifle, armor piercing bullets and a 100 round magazine ? I would think the law enforcement professionals would love to see these items banned and taken off the streets. For a supposedly civilized country we sure do love our hi powered, hi velocity weapons which puzzles the crap out of me ! What's the difference between this hunting rifle and this "assault rifle"? Answer: People want to ban one because it looks evil.
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 24, 2012 7:10:05 GMT -5
They may be the same caliber but the issue is magazine capacity. I'm willing to compromise and say assault weapons are fine as long as the magazine capacity is no more than 10-20 rounds.
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Post by gridbug on Jul 24, 2012 8:22:36 GMT -5
They may be the same caliber but the issue is magazine capacity. I'm willing to compromise and say assault weapons are fine as long as the magazine capacity is no more than 10-20 rounds. There is absolutely NO connection between some guy being a homicidal maniac and what people are allowed to purchase legally. Maybe when I go shooting I like 50 round clips because I don't want to sit around reloading. Using your logic, if some day one unbalanced person ran their car into a crowd, then all Americans should be denied the convenience of driving. Any lawmaker considering making arbitrary laws to govern the populace in reaction to one person being a looney just reminds us there is no justice in the American legal system.
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 24, 2012 9:42:43 GMT -5
I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the answer or even a good remedy for the issues surrounding mass shootings by some deranged individual. That said there is something fundamentally wrong when any Tom, Dick, or Harry can buy armor piercing ammo, assault rifles, hi capacity magazines, and full body armor via the Internet, or gun expos. To the objective outside observer the US looks more like Iraq and Afghanistan than a civilized nation.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jul 24, 2012 11:40:40 GMT -5
They may be the same caliber but the issue is magazine capacity. I'm willing to compromise and say assault weapons are fine as long as the magazine capacity is no more than 10-20 rounds. Capacity of those two rifles are the same. They both have 10, 20 and 30 round mags available. With a little practice, mags can be changed in under one second, so the capacity is really irrelevant. Both are semiautomatic - meaning the"assault rifle" is not a machine gun. Both rifles can be purchased at Walmart. The only difference between them is one looks scary. Not sure what you mean when you say armor piercing ammo. The BATF defines "armor piercing" as handgun rounds that can pierce armor. Nearly all rifle rounds will go through police grade Kevlar and thin metal (like car doors, emergency exit doors, etc). Even a 22lr rifle can go through most vests (upto level III, I think).
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jul 24, 2012 14:24:29 GMT -5
Why not?
Basically I'm asking who are you or anyone else to tell me I don't need them? As long as my behavior is legal what is it to you if I do have these items? If your response is that I might do something harmful to society with these items my response to you is that I might drive my car through a crowd of people exiting from a movie theater after a show is over. I might take a pickaxe to a gas meter on the outside of a busy restaurant and throw a lit book of matches at it. It isn't what one might do that is the problem, one might do anything, it's what one does do.
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osrb
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Post by osrb on Jul 24, 2012 14:46:44 GMT -5
They may be the same caliber but the issue is magazine capacity. I'm willing to compromise and say assault weapons are fine as long as the magazine capacity is no more than 10-20 rounds. Capacity of those two rifles are the same. They both have 10, 20 and 30 round mags available. With a little practice, mags can be changed in under one second, so the capacity is really irrelevant. Both are semiautomatic - meaning the"assault rifle" is not a machine gun. Both rifles can be purchased at Walmart. The only difference between them is one looks scary. Not sure what you mean when you say armor piercing ammo. The BATF defines "armor piercing" as handgun rounds that can pierce armor. Nearly all rifle rounds will go through police grade Kevlar and thin metal (like car doors, emergency exit doors, etc). Even a 22lr rifle can go through most vests (upto level III, I think). don't forget JC that both of those shoot the same type of round. .223/5.56.
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jul 24, 2012 15:11:37 GMT -5
They may be the same caliber but the issue is magazine capacity. I'm willing to compromise and say assault weapons are fine as long as the magazine capacity is no more than 10-20 rounds. Frayne, you can say whatever you want but why would you want to limit the capacity of magazine I can use if I am not harming anyone and I am acting in a lawful manner?
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 24, 2012 18:28:47 GMT -5
They may be the same caliber but the issue is magazine capacity. I'm willing to compromise and say assault weapons are fine as long as the magazine capacity is no more than 10-20 rounds. Frayne, you can say whatever you want but why would you want to limit the capacity of magazine I can use if I am not harming anyone and I am acting in a lawful manner? OK, so what if you want to buy, fly and shoot rockets from a Cobra gunship just because you are a law abiding citizen, should you be able to ? Like I stated before, I don't have the answers but it is a shame we seem to suffer these mass killings on somewhat of a regular basis. I own guns, have a carry permit, also a combat vet but I still think something is fundamentally wrong with our society/country if just because you can afford and are a law abiding citizen you can possess damn near any weapon you can afford. There has to be some sanity somewhere down the line. For God's sakes you need more ID to buy Sudafed cold medicine than you need to buy an assault rifle, armor piercing rounds, body armor, and with a 100 round round mag. Something is wrong with this picture. FYI, I am a law abiding citizen, registered Republican and an NRA member (although may not renew my membership for various and sundry reasons).
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Post by Justin Thyme on Jul 24, 2012 19:59:05 GMT -5
Why not? I can see how someone could fulfill that fantasy in a very responsible manner. Why would you deny them that?
See, I can't condone banning any material thing. I would much prefer demanding responsible behavior from people and having strict penalties for irresponsible behavior.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jul 24, 2012 20:01:30 GMT -5
I've never had a background check or had to fill out a questionnaire for buying Sudafed...
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 24, 2012 21:02:12 GMT -5
Like I said, I don't have the answers but God forbid if you had lost a child in a mass shooting event I would venture to say you may feel differently about our cavalier attitidue concerning firearms.
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goomba
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Post by goomba on Jul 24, 2012 22:07:55 GMT -5
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 25, 2012 10:30:36 GMT -5
Why not? I can see how someone could fulfill that fantasy in a very responsible manner. Why would you deny them that? See, I can't condone banning any material thing. I would much prefer demanding responsible behavior from people and having strict penalties for irresponsible behavior. OK, so you can afford a B-52, and 30, one thousand pound bombs and have the acreage to make bombing runs. Should you be allowed by law to carry out your fantasy ? And as far as blaming the tool and not the person, I would say the tools are way too easy to procure and limits should be based on the lethality of the weapon. If you want to buy an assault weapon, armor piercing rounds and the like, put a substantial user tax on these things, plus require extensive background checks, and a six month waiting period.
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Post by gridbug on Jul 25, 2012 11:12:17 GMT -5
Buying a gun in response to this event is as much an emotional and irrational reaction as wanting more laws to be implemented.
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 25, 2012 11:24:35 GMT -5
Buying a gun in response to this event is as much an emotional and irrational reaction as wanting more laws to be implemented. +1
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BlackFox
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Post by BlackFox on Jul 25, 2012 11:59:44 GMT -5
I'm withholding judgement on this matter until Ted Nugent rings in.
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 25, 2012 12:30:39 GMT -5
If Ted were to be in that theater he would have been the first one out the door and with a brown stain in his pants. Afraid Ted is all hat and no cattle when it comes to putting his life on the line, as he demonstrated during the days of the draft. That said I'm sure Ted will be heard from soon enough.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jul 25, 2012 12:53:13 GMT -5
You keep saying this even after I explained it to you above. I can back it up from non NRA sources if like? Armor piercing ammo is a Hollywood myth as you're referring. ATF defines it as handgun ammo and they DO regulate it. Nearly all rifles, regrades of bullet design, will defeat body armor, including many 22 rifles. There is no magical "armor piercing" ammo that will defeat vehicle armor or blow up a tank. www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/general-information-sales-and-samples.htmlAn "assault rifle" is no more "deadly" then a hunting rifle. See the above pictures. They fire the same rounds that can be found in hunting rifles. They hold the same amount of ammunition. In terms of "deadliness" they are actually less deadly. Most "assault rifles" are going to have a 16 or 18 inch barrel. Whereas hunting rifles will usually have a 24+ inch barrel. That means the bullets will have more energy, more speed ("knock down" power) and more accuracy. There are currently FBI background checks in place for every gun purchase from a gun dealer (that includes most gun show vendors, too). www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/nicsFar as blaming the tool goes; I was nearly killed 7 years ago. Spent 2 months in ATL Medical Center after wrecking a motorcycle. Ask me if I blame the motorcycle or myself. Sure, not exactly the same but close enough. You want to blame the gun instead of the criminal. Funny thing is, you will not blame the gas or gas station for his gas bombs.
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Post by frayne56 on Jul 25, 2012 13:24:32 GMT -5
I am not blaming the gun, just the easy availability of the tool to any nut that wants to own one, two, three or a dozen. I understand that a hunting rifle and an assault weapon can share the same caliber but the assault weapons have a capacity for magazines that can hold 30 or more rounds where as most hunting rifles hold maybe a half dozen or so. As I said before, at minimum put a six month waiting period in place when buying and require an extensive background check for anyone wanting an assault rifle. Is that too much to ask ?
As far as gun shows and background checks at gun shows, none usually happens when guys are buying and selling out in the parking lots, as we all know that happens.
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JC
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Post by JC on Jul 25, 2012 13:57:29 GMT -5
Again, hunting rifles are the same thing as an "assault rifle". The below gun is the same model as the hunting rifle pictured above. The operation is the same. Caliber is the same. Only difference is one looks scary. Ruger Mini 14 Extensive background checks? An FBI background check isn't enough? Thing to keep in mind is that most (if not all) of the mass shooters were not criminals before their mass murders. No amount of BG checks could have stopped them. The Fort Hood shooter passed all of the Military's checks in addition to the FBI's for Christs sake... So? Private sales are not illegal. Even if, it would be unenforceable and thugs would still sell "on the skreets".
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Post by Warkitty on Jul 25, 2012 14:33:01 GMT -5
I can buy up to 20 gallons of gas using my fuel perks card with a nice discount. I bet that amount of gas could do some SERIOUS damage if I set it to start burning at the entrance to a public venue. I wouldn't, but the point is it's not being looked at as "OMG BAN IT!" and is equally deadly.
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Post by Tsavodiner on Jul 25, 2012 15:55:08 GMT -5
EVERYONE in that theater was a law-abiding citizen; they were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to do, which was come UNARMED to enjoy a movie.
Guys like "the shooter" (I refuse to use his name in deference to the victims) count on this. They expect no resistance and will tailor their attack to encounter the least resistance.
Ban 'em, don't ban 'em, I'm past caring as long as mental health professionals are shielded from having to report certain patient actions IN THE PLANNING PHASE instead of afterward.
Methinks the psychiatrist's notes will be telling.
BTW: Shooter did NOT "legally" obtains his guns if he LIED about receiving mental health treatment.
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